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Topic Summary - Displaying 25 post(s).
Posted by: smajor82
Posted on: Apr 12th, 2012 at 9:14pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
How about this then: if polygraph tests are truly reliable, then what information do we need to identify which of the two tests in question are valid? Provide a complete list and how would measure everything on that list.  You seem to be good at dismissing people's questions in a way that prevents you from ever having to provide actual information.

If you can't measure everything you need to know in order to effectively evaluate a test, then it's not a very good test, is it?  It sounds like the only way to explain the results we have here is with vague, un-quantifiable things like "bias".
Posted by: jcamiller
Posted on: Feb 15th, 2011 at 3:57am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
1. singer lose their vioce
2. you just lost your vioce
conclusion: your a singer


p.s. i'm 11 years old and i'm just learning this so it might be wrong Undecided  Embarrassed
Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: May 27th, 2008 at 7:47pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
nopc

physiological
Posted by: nopolycop
Posted on: May 27th, 2008 at 7:42pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
pailryder wrote on May 27th, 2008 at 6:29pm:
nopoly

If APA guidelines are followed, premp accuracy can be acceptable.  That guideline requires a single issue follow up for any initial unresolved response.  Few agencies to my knowledge go that extra distance.  


What  do you mean by an unresolved response?  Verbal or physiological?
Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: May 27th, 2008 at 6:53pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Mr Cullen

Ask the APA.
Posted by: T.M. Cullen
Posted on: May 27th, 2008 at 6:39pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Quote:
If APA guidelines are followed, premp accuracy can be acceptable.  That guideline requires a single issue follow up for any initial unresolved response.  Few agencies to my knowledge go that extra distance.


A single issue follow-up polygraph?  You can put a tuxedo on a pig, but it will still be a pig.  You are still trying to validate the polygraph with another polygraph.

Why not a follow-up INVESTIGATION.

What do the APA guildelines say about telling the test subject that the test is 95-98% accurate, which they do all the time?

TC
Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: May 27th, 2008 at 6:29pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
nopoly

If APA guidelines are followed, premp accuracy can be acceptable.  That guideline requires a single issue follow up for any initial unresolved response.  Few agencies to my knowledge go that extra distance.
Posted by: nopolycop
Posted on: May 27th, 2008 at 5:45pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
I take it from your response then, that you do not view the accuracy of pre-employment screening tests as being particularily accurate.

Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: May 27th, 2008 at 4:09pm
  Mark & Quote
nopolycop

In preemp screening, utility can, probably does, exceed accuracy.  Every agency has finite resources and limited time for background investigations.  Even a small city police department may have 300 passes on the initial written test with only 20 openings at the academy.  To do 300 full background checks, depending on how many applicants were out of state, could tie up every criminal investigator for months.   

One thing that can be fairly said of polyexs is they usually have good interview skills and extract a fair amount of additional information from people who have already "fully disclosed" on their application.

As to accuracy, the best analogy is to target shooting, where with proper training most shooters can hit a single target or know that they missed.  But to simultainously shoot at seven different targets, how many hit seven out of seven?  That has to be much more difficult.

Police departments reason this process is not unfair as long as everyone gets the same test, has the same chance, takes the same risk.
Posted by: nopolycop
Posted on: May 27th, 2008 at 2:25pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
pailryder wrote on May 26th, 2008 at 5:37pm:
ng1

Yes, very serious limitations, but some legitimate applications.  A fair assessment of accuracy for most specific (non screening) applications, is significantly above chance, significantly below perfection.


Pailryder:

The above is an interesting statement.  I would be interested in hearing your comments regarding what  you believe a fair assessment of the accuracy of "screening" tests would be.
Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: May 26th, 2008 at 5:37pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
ng1

Yes, very serious limitations, but some legitimate applications.  A fair assessment of accuracy for most specific (non screening) applications, is significantly above chance, significantly below perfection.
Posted by: notguilty1
Posted on: May 26th, 2008 at 4:26pm
  Mark & Quote
pailryder wrote on May 26th, 2008 at 12:42pm:
notguilty 1

I guess I don't understand your beef.  You were a suspect in a theft, you consented to a police polygraph, the police examiner got your result wrong and subjected you to a harsh interrogation.  Is that what happened?  As Mr Maschke explains in The Lie Behind the Lie the only sure way of protecting against examiner error is to refuse the test.  So are you angry because your examiner understated the risk, or because he made an error, or because you didn't exercise your right to refuse?  


Hi Pail,
Yes I was accused of a theft. I was asked to take a Poligraph by the detective I agreed because I knew I had nothing to hide and I as many were under the false impression that Polygraph is very accurate.
I was informed that I failed and I was showing "some" deception. 
My beef is that this test is being used to judge people and is inaccurate. I know this first hand. I know I had the right to refuse but felt I did not need to exercise that right.
Today, unfortunatly the gun I was accused to stealing has not been recovered and there are still 3 people that, based on Polygraph beleve me to be a thief. Yes I am getting over it but I value my reputation. The test was designed to clear me since I was being truthfull in ALL and ANY information about the gun. 
My goal here is to inform people that come here for information not to fall for the BS about Polygraph being 95-98% accurate and that it can infact detect lies two beliefs that the general public has about Polygraph. ( I was told these lies by the Polygrapher ) IF I had it to do over I would have told the detective what to do with his Polygraph machine.
Pail, You seem like a reasonable person and you even suggested in your posts that you do not defend Polygraph in all applications ( I am paraphrasing) so I assume you too understand Polygraphs serious limitations.
Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: May 26th, 2008 at 12:42pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
notguilty 1

I guess I don't understand your beef.  You were a suspect in a theft, you consented to a police polygraph, the police examiner got your result wrong and subjected you to a harsh interrogation.  Is that what happened?  As Mr Maschke explains in The Lie Behind the Lie the only sure way of protecting against examiner error is to refuse the test.  So are you angry because your examiner understated the risk, or because he made an error, or because you didn't exercise your right to refuse?
Posted by: notguilty1
Posted on: May 26th, 2008 at 12:50am
  Mark & Quote
pailryder wrote on May 25th, 2008 at 7:34pm:
ng1

I am not here to defend all use of polygraph, especially preemp screening.  I am here to learn.  I learn more by discussion with those opposed to what I do than with people who support what I do, and frankly, it is a more stimulating conversation.  Help me learn, you tell me, give me a number, how accurate would CQT have to be for you to consider it useful?

And about DNA, did you follow the OJ matter?


Pail,
I really appreciate your apperant willingness to have an intelligent discussion.
As for how accurate I would want it to be, doesn't matter because it's current legally accepted accuracy makes the test inadmissable in court as well as illegal for most employment screenings. 
That to me makes it unacceptable no matter what the numbers are. 
The Polygraph industry keeps claiming 95-98% ( I know this because that was told to me by the police examiner) which is non verifiable offically anywhere in any scientific study.
As for the OJ case if I recall the blood found at the scene was verified to be OJ's through DNA however he got off because of a very expensive defense team and sloppy police work not the failure of DNA analisis.
Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: May 25th, 2008 at 7:34pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
ng1

I am not here to defend all use of polygraph, especially preemp screening.  I am here to learn.  I learn more by discussion with those opposed to what I do than with people who support what I do, and frankly, it is a more stimulating conversation.  Help me learn, you tell me, give me a number, how accurate would CQT have to be for you to consider it useful?

And about DNA, did you follow the OJ matter?
Posted by: notguilty1
Posted on: May 25th, 2008 at 7:26pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
pailryder wrote on May 25th, 2008 at 5:33pm:
ng1

The reality is that even if polygraph techiques were 100% some would still object to their use.  This is more than an argument about numbers.  



Pail,
That is not the reality and if it were that "some" would object this site would not have the success it has.
I have not seen any such issues arise with let's say DNA testing why? Because it is an accurate test and there fore IS admissable in court.
You have a test that by all accounts is little more than a coin toss, your industry knows this and so do you. Thats why you and Sackett are here trying to defend your position on a test that has shown to be overwhelmingly unreliable in detecting deception. If you can find a true and proven use for polygraph we would no longer have this argument and this site would loose it's usefullness.
Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: May 25th, 2008 at 5:33pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
ng1

Even if polygraph techniques were 100% some would still object to their use.  This is more an argument about proper use than simply numbers.
Posted by: notguilty1
Posted on: May 25th, 2008 at 4:40pm
  Mark & Quote
sackett wrote on May 25th, 2008 at 4:27pm:
notguilty1 wrote on May 25th, 2008 at 4:04pm:
sackett wrote on May 25th, 2008 at 5:03am:
"notguilty1",

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but as a public servant, I am not getting wealthy working for my agency and conducting polygraph examinations.  

I do this because I truly believe in the polygraph process.  You and others may continue to accuse examiners of supporting what we do as a financial concern and interest, but you are wrong.  

Most of us believe in what we are doing.  


Sackett



I am sure your not getting wealthy. We all have our financial potential limitations. 
If you as you say "really believe in the polygraph process" then you also have other limitaions and that is in comprehention of facts. Odd that some one that has those limitations is sitting in judgement of others.
Perhaps it the "sitting in judgement" that so apeals to you. You have shown by your posts that you recognize and accept the limitations of polygraph and you have even said that "this is all we have". So how can you possibly believe in the process?



"notguilty1",

you presume to understand my motivations.    

I have stated that polygraph is not perfect and mistakes can be made, by either and/or both parties.  But, we have come to an agreement that nothing is perfect.  

Your (and others' point) is to do away with polygraph entirely because there is a small percentage of wrong findings.  While George and others attack polygraph on the primary basis that the NAS found it was too unstable as a screening device, althewhile ignoring potential motiviations and the fact it was not scientifc research but a review of material and research they thought appropriate; this entire board has ignored it's finding and potential concerning specific issue testing.  

Very selective, I think...

Sackett


Sackett, I don't presume to understad your motives I was simply guessing, unlike you I have no crystal ball to tell me what people are thinking.
Also, I am not here to eliminate a viable test that would in fact detect deception if and when that test is avaliable. To use polygraph as a detection devise in spite if its limitations in that capacity is WRONG and therefore must be eliminated as such.
Of course that leaves you unemployed. I am sorry that that is where you'd find yourself but it does not merritt continuing a lie to the public.
BTW Sackett you always mentionthat we are so few as I can see you are the only one that is here going on and on about your snake oil. Grin
Posted by: sackett
Posted on: May 25th, 2008 at 4:27pm
  Mark & Quote
notguilty1 wrote on May 25th, 2008 at 4:04pm:
sackett wrote on May 25th, 2008 at 5:03am:
"notguilty1",

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but as a public servant, I am not getting wealthy working for my agency and conducting polygraph examinations.  

I do this because I truly believe in the polygraph process.  You and others may continue to accuse examiners of supporting what we do as a financial concern and interest, but you are wrong.  

Most of us believe in what we are doing.  


Sackett



I am sure your not getting wealthy. We all have our financial potential limitations. 
If you as you say "really believe in the polygraph process" then you also have other limitaions and that is in comprehention of facts. Odd that some one that has those limitations is sitting in judgement of others.
Perhaps it the "sitting in judgement" that so apeals to you. You have shown by your posts that you recognize and accept the limitations of polygraph and you have even said that "this is all we have". So how can you possibly believe in the process?



"notguilty1",

you presume to understand my motivations.    

I have stated that polygraph is not perfect and mistakes can be made, by either and/or both parties.  But, we have come to an agreement that nothing is perfect.   

Your (and others' point) is to do away with polygraph entirely because there is a small percentage of wrong findings.  While George and others attack polygraph on the primary basis that the NAS found it was too unstable as a screening device, althewhile ignoring potential motiviations and the fact it was not scientifc research but a review of material and research they thought appropriate; this entire board has ignored it's finding and potential concerning specific issue testing.   

Very selective, I think...

Sackett
Posted by: notguilty1
Posted on: May 25th, 2008 at 4:07pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
pailryder wrote on May 25th, 2008 at 3:44pm:
ng1

To be fair, you must recognize that Dr. Lykken had some financial interest in selling books.    


I do recognize that. But you must know that his views are not unique in the subject of polygraph if he was the only one I would agree that finaicial motivation is a consideraton.
Come on ..... if polygraph was in fact 95-98% accurate or anything close it would be admissable in court and it would not be illegal for employers other than feds and LE to use it in their employment practice.
Posted by: notguilty1
Posted on: May 25th, 2008 at 4:04pm
  Mark & Quote
sackett wrote on May 25th, 2008 at 5:03am:
"notguilty1",

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but as a public servant, I am not getting wealthy working for my agency and conducting polygraph examinations.  

I do this because I truly believe in the polygraph process.  You and others may continue to accuse examiners of supporting what we do as a financial concern and interest, but you are wrong.  

Most of us believe in what we are doing.  


Sackett



I am sure your not getting wealthy. We all have our financial potential limitations. 
If you as you say "really believe in the polygraph process" then you also have other limitaions and that is in comprehention of facts. Odd that some one that has those limitations is sitting in judgement of others.
Perhaps it the "sitting in judgement" that so apeals to you. You have shown by your posts that you recognize and accept the limitations of polygraph and you have even said that "this is all we have". So how can you possibly believe in the process?

Posted by: pailryder
Posted on: May 25th, 2008 at 3:44pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
ng1

To be fair, you must recognize that Dr. Lykken had some financial interest in selling books.
Posted by: sackett
Posted on: May 25th, 2008 at 5:03am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
"notguilty1",

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but as a public servant, I am not getting wealthy working for my agency and conducting polygraph examinations.  

I do this because I truly believe in the polygraph process.  You and others may continue to accuse examiners of supporting what we do as a financial concern and interest, but you are wrong.  

Most of us believe in what we are doing.  


Sackett

Posted by: notguilty1
Posted on: May 24th, 2008 at 10:40pm
  Mark & Quote
George W. Maschke wrote on May 24th, 2008 at 3:17pm:
pailryder,

The passage you quoted from (apparently the 1st edition of) A Tremor in the Blood is retained in the 2nd edition, where it appears at p. 68. For proper context, here's the entire section in which the passage appears:

Quote:
How dependable is the lie detector, then? Here is a straightforward question for which there is no simple answer. Since "dependable" is vague and the "lie detector" does not exist, I must start by rewording the question. There are several different types of polygraphic examination, each based on different assumptions; one cannot assume that all these types will have the same degree of accuracy. To provide some initial perspective, remember the purpose of a polygraph is to diagnose the individual respondent as deceptive or truthful with greater accuracy than one could achieve without the examination. I can classify subjects as truthful or deceptive and be correct half the time merely by flipping a coin; the chance accuracy of this type of dichotomous classification is 50%--if 50% of the subjects are actually lying. If my subjects are all defendants who have been brought to trial on criminal charges, and if the statistics show that 80% of this group, on average, are in fact guilty, then I could attain 80% accuracy just by classifying everyone as deceptive. For a test to be useful, its accuracy must be obviously higher than one can achieve by chance, and it should usually be higher than the base rate of the more frequent classification in the group tested.

Finally, we must ponder the deeper question of how accurate a lie test ought to be for particular applications. If one is hiring policemen or CIA operatives, then it might be thought that any additional clues, any improvement over chance at all might be worthwhile. These are sensitive positions in which the wrong person can do great mischief, and it may be in the public interest to use a screening procedure that reduces the number of undesirable candidates hired, even if this means also excluding a large number of perfectly acceptable people, wrongly called deceptive by the test. As we shall see later, however, there is reason to believe that many honorable people, the very sort of "straight arrows" we should like to see in these sensitive positions, are especially vulnerable to failing and being eliminated by these screening tests. Moreover, cases like that of Aldrich Ames indicate that false negative errors (classifying a liar as truthful) not only occur but do great harm when reasonable suspicions are quieted by unjustified faith in the polygraph. In the United Nations fantasy that we considered earlier, it would be disastrous to settle for even 90% accuracy in the Truth Verifier. If so much weight is placed on the test result that one makes less effort to seek other information or is lulled into a feeling of great confidence in the result, then one should make sure that the test result is very dependable indeed.


I don't see how you can, in good faith, suggest than Lykken lacked objectivity in his foregoing assessments. Unlike polygraph operators, Lykken's judgment was unclouded by the self-interest involved when one derives income from giving lie detector tests.



"I don't see how you can, in good faith, suggest than Lykken lacked objectivity in his foregoing assessments. Unlike polygraph operators, Lykken's judgment was unclouded by the self-interest involved when one derives income from giving lie detector tests"

And here "lies" (no pun intended) the motivation for Sackett and his like to  continue to defend a un scientific test that yeilds results that CANNOT be relied upon for the purpose of dedtecting decption.
Their unwillngness to admit that the test is not accurate though they use verbage at times that would suggest. This is due manly to the financial ties they have to polygraph and that is also why they are always on here trying to BS new members to this site to continue to believe that polygraph is 95-98 % accurate.



Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: May 24th, 2008 at 3:17pm
  Mark & Quote
pailryder,

The passage you quoted from (apparently the 1st edition of) A Tremor in the Blood is retained in the 2nd edition, where it appears at p. 68. For proper context, here's the entire section in which the passage appears:

Quote:
How dependable is the lie detector, then? Here is a straightforward question for which there is no simple answer. Since "dependable" is vague and the "lie detector" does not exist, I must start by rewording the question. There are several different types of polygraphic examination, each based on different assumptions; one cannot assume that all these types will have the same degree of accuracy. To provide some initial perspective, remember the purpose of a polygraph is to diagnose the individual respondent as deceptive or truthful with greater accuracy than one could achieve without the examination. I can classify subjects as truthful or deceptive and be correct half the time merely by flipping a coin; the chance accuracy of this type of dichotomous classification is 50%--if 50% of the subjects are actually lying. If my subjects are all defendants who have been brought to trial on criminal charges, and if the statistics show that 80% of this group, on average, are in fact guilty, then I could attain 80% accuracy just by classifying everyone as deceptive. For a test to be useful, its accuracy must be obviously higher than one can achieve by chance, and it should usually be higher than the base rate of the more frequent classification in the group tested.

Finally, we must ponder the deeper question of how accurate a lie test ought to be for particular applications. If one is hiring policemen or CIA operatives, then it might be thought that any additional clues, any improvement over chance at all might be worthwhile. These are sensitive positions in which the wrong person can do great mischief, and it may be in the public interest to use a screening procedure that reduces the number of undesirable candidates hired, even if this means also excluding a large number of perfectly acceptable people, wrongly called deceptive by the test. As we shall see later, however, there is reason to believe that many honorable people, the very sort of "straight arrows" we should like to see in these sensitive positions, are especially vulnerable to failing and being eliminated by these screening tests. Moreover, cases like that of Aldrich Ames indicate that false negative errors (classifying a liar as truthful) not only occur but do great harm when reasonable suspicions are quieted by unjustified faith in the polygraph. In the United Nations fantasy that we considered earlier, it would be disastrous to settle for even 90% accuracy in the Truth Verifier. If so much weight is placed on the test result that one makes less effort to seek other information or is lulled into a feeling of great confidence in the result, then one should make sure that the test result is very dependable indeed.


I don't see how you can, in good faith, suggest than Lykken lacked objectivity in his foregoing assessments. Unlike polygraph operators, Lykken's judgment was unclouded by the self-interest involved when one derives income from giving lie detector tests.
 
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