T.M. Cullen wrote on Mar 21^st, 2008 at 6:34am:


Mr Cullen,

comparing alchemist to polygraph examiners?  How many were later identified as brilliant for their times and the father of their particular studies?

I'll take your comparison as a compliment, especially since alchemy was the earliest form of chemistry, metallurgy, physics, medicine, astrology, semiotics, mysticism, spiritualism (as quoted from Wikkipedia).  Most, of course are sciences which I am sure you would find fault in under examination by your "trained and accomplished"  eye...

Sackett

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 21^st, 2008 at 10:24pm:


Huh?!!!! Are you responding to TM here or me? If you are asking me, you should answer my questions first. 

You should answer anyway. Or are you to busy looking in whatever reading material you have gathered from some class you took from some crackpot with a fake PHD or an absent minded boob that can't even remember to renew a license. Take your choice, because I doubt that you went to a quality PCSOT school. 

T.M. Cullen wrote on Mar 21^st, 2008 at 9:17pm:


That could cover both sides of the fence. But, that may very well be your point.

        T.M.

    It would seem you were unable to deal with MY posting altogether, other than recycling something altogether unrelated.  I think this goes to my previous point about the same old Mantras being said over and over with no piercing effect.   

   Please answer this for me if you can.  Math is the only perfect science.  Polygraph (as well as other charts) are converted to mathamatics in rendering a decision.  There are almost endless case examples in specific issue testing of confirmed charts PRIOR to other evidence validating them.  Well trained Examiners with the most modern computer equipment, inclusive of motion sensors, have usually a low end 2% to high end 5% or less Inconclusive rate.  In the remaining 95 to 98% of the time they are able to arrive at a clear point of rendering a clear finding, and one which is usually consistent in those charts.  How do you account for the Examiner's hand score (subjective), as backed by the computer algorithm products (objective) arriving at the same conclusion in such high numbers.  Neither the computer or the examiner place anything on the chart, and it ALL comes from the subject.   

  Please don't respond with your opinion about how you don't like it, as I have a child at the single digit age range who can do that about his food.  Rather, You as an articulate adult please use logic to account for the above variables.  Not a mantra, or blanket statements, but specifically --------- how are they able to do this  ? 

Mr Cullen,

Quote:


It applies to everyone it applies to.

I would also add ARROGANT and VINDICTIVE to the list of adjectives describing them.

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 21^st, 2008 at 3:05pm:


It seems my ahem esteemed colleague    has been happy to tell you that the process is accurate, but fails to "Reach down deep now, and in your cool sobering maturity" tell the posters, at least in part, why he believes the process is accurate. I can now understand why the credibility of the profession is questioned.   Using the "it does so work" argument just causes more questions and suspicion. Therefore I will apologize for my dear colleague from parts unknown and try to explain just a bit more using a post I have made in the past on another discussion. I think you'll find my post far more enlightening.

the following is the cut and paste text from that posting.


 Re: Polygrapher Violating Disclosure of Information to fellow Officers
Reply #11 - Yesterday at 7:44pm      nopolycop wrote on Jan 10th, 2008, 7:03pm:
Please explain to me, Mr. Wolf, how one can "pass" or "fail" an opinion?  It is well established that the results of a polygraph examination is simply the learned opinion of the polygrapher, correct?  With the more experienced, better educated polygraphers likely to have a more accurate opinion, correct?

Assuming the above is accurate, how can one pass or fail an opinion? 
An examiner reading your physiological data and scoring the data based on the degree of physiological arousal that is 
1, timely
2, significant
3, and consistent among the 3 collected charts

Should be able at accurately assess which question you are most afraid of. Lets, remember people, this is not a lie detector, it's a fear detector. We are reading sympathetic vs parasympathetic nervous system reaction. No one can “detect a lie” unless of course that person truly is GOD. And if you do meet God, tell him to call me. I know a lot of people that are trying to find his son and I am sick of them asking me where he is.

While there are some scoring systems that give the examiner a degree of subjectivity, the decision to go to the green or the red SHOULD be an objective one. This is sadly not always the case. Thus bringing me to my next opinion.

I feel, in some cases, the new examiner is more apt to be objective than subjective. The new examiner is fresh out of school, wide eyed and truly eager to do it all "by the book". They will often sit at their desk with a ruler and a score sheet and take 5-10 minutes to score chart #1. ahhhh to be a young examiner. On the flip side of that, the new examiner can miss a few things that only experience teaches. I believe that you learn about polygraph in polygraph school. It's what gets pumped into that new examiners brain after school that makes him/her a chart roller or an examiner.

That brings me to the next issue.

The more experienced examiner, can be someone who truly loves his/her job. They can’t wait to get and sometimes comes home late because time got away from him/her. This is an examiner that trains interns well, quality controls the lesser experienced charts for errors, and corrects the bad habits or unprofessional behavior of the examiners under his or her supervision. Sadly this examiner is not in the majority. 

Some more experienced examiners may have "hit the wall". Maybe he/she has become a bit jaded or has become someone who goes to work, does the job, and goes home like many people that some of us know. They forgot how important it was to be objective and fair. This examiner, in my opinion has many years under his or her belt and can't wait to for the day that they can leave it all behind them and spend their last days in God's waiting room, Florida.

On the flip side of this is the arrogant pinhead that feels that he/she maybe is "God's gift to the polygraph community". This is someone who runs his/her office like a chart factory, feels that they are somehow above the law, and disregards the principals of polygraph because after all, they seem to think they know it all. 

Because they know it all, they try to hire or train as many people as they can in an effort to infect the community with their brand of "truth", making it more difficult for the examiner that does give a crap to make a solid difference that is positive and helpful to the world. This is next to impossible because of the chart roller larva that is infecting this industry with a smothering virus of ignorance, self indulgence, and egotism.

In closing over 51% of the time I would trust the non politically motivated "new guy" to give a fair test over most of the examiners that have been around  25+ years.

Let me know if I have missed anything in my answer. 

I do hope that I have given you more understandable information than "it does so work".

T.M. Cullen wrote on Mar 21^st, 2008 at 6:34am:


Mr Cullen,

I have to ask before I respond to this posting. Is your post regarding all examiners, or is it directed at the Grand Inquisitor and others of his ilk? 

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 21^st, 2008 at 4:55am:


I didn't say I was disagreeing with you, I was just saying that you were very hostile and defensive, kind of like now. I never said they had full civil rights, but the basic ones still stand. The one that is most encumbered by this probation is the 4th and 2dn amendments. The 1st and 5th amendment rights still stand with some restrictions. 

By the way,  I get my information from a lawyer that I pay for this kind of advice before I go shooting my mouth off. So, unless you have a Bar Card, what you have to say in regards to the interpretation of law means nothing to me. I would also thank you to not give legal advice or interpret law without a license to do so. That kind of thing can get you into trouble. I have an idea, let’s let the judges and lawyers decide what a violation of conditions is, after all they are the ones who wrote the law. Do your job and let them do theirs. 

If someone wants to risk getting into trouble, then let them hang them selves. Though I am willing to bet if they are exposing the likes of you, the Judge may be easy on them to get to you.

Moreover you are in no place to inform me of anything. You sound like one of those chart rollers that loves the word inconclusive, just so you can charge for another test, and don't say that examiners aren't looser with inconclusive in PCSOT than with any other test. Lying just insults me and degrades you.

Tell me to you mark your test with the term "utility test"? Oh my, did I use the term “utility test” in my outside voice? Silly me. I wonder if anyone else knows what a "utility test" is.  Or do you run a true polygraph? 
Are all your examinations audio and video recorded? 
Do you run only approved formats? 
Do you hand score all charts or do you give then a quick "global review"? 
Do all your PCSOT tests run a minimum of 90 minutes? 

If you have to think about any of these questions or you get defensive, than my concern is that you are outside of APA standards. Don't say there aren't examiners out there that don't do it, we all know they do and who thay there are.

By the way, I wonder if you can tell me how the GSR works and what is the difference between analog and sensor box GSR? I await this answer with great anticipation. If you know the answer maybe you can tell me, just so I know.  

Next time read the post. Interesting how hostile you have been and you don't deny it. 

      Hi T.M.
   
     Did you not just see me participate in a civil explanation to G.M. about the conditions sex offenders live under as ordered by a Judge ?
What was your problem with that ?  Are you so entrenched in your position that you reach to the fringes of having no argument that you have to reference the middle ages ?  You may find if and when you are open to it that the Truth does not rest in the fringes, and in regard to the computer polygraph it's proponents have already stated it is not perfect but significant , while its detractors still try to use that less than pefect admission as if it had no value at all.  I would rather believe that people of your side of the aisle might mature and also admit that technology, techniques, and their applications get better with time.  Simply trying to tear down that which is, and has been proven valuable; and without any replacement for same, is a waste of time and energy.  Reach down deep now, and in your cool sobering maturity, tell me what you would replace the polygraph with that is both more affordable and reliable.  I still have been waiting for that answer from you folks, you see only passed over applicants here and those claiming the shadow of "I told the Truth" in their tests who spew out only negativity, and no reality.

I think we should let TLG keep posting so we can examine the true, unmasked workings of the "polygrapher mind".  Quite similar to that of an inquisitor of the "Middle Ages".

Did alchemists fret as much when debunked?  Were their ravings as venomous and incoherent?

     Okay,

  A sex offender in a treatment program on probation / parole may have that status up and including for life.  While in the program either the treatment provider or the probation officer may violate them and have them revoked which means jail / prison.  The program is a priviledge, and not  right.  In fact, while on probation they do NOT have their full civil rights.  Further, they may not communicate outside of group treatment with other felons.  They, and the language is usually broad as interpreted by a Judge, Treatment provider, or probation officer; may not perform any action which leads them forward in the cycle of deviance.  They may not discuss out of group their polygraph experiences, questions, methods, results, etc.  To any reasonable person then, their communicating with you as a part of Anti-Polygraph.com is in fact an    Anti-Program measure for them. They are not making a commitment to the polygraph community per se, but rather to the macro treatment program as not to undermine its function for themselves or others.  Your efforts are a contaminent in that legal process for them, and they know it.  In fairness to you, NOW you know it.

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 20^th, 2008 at 8:43pm:



Wow, you know, the more you type the more hostile you seem to sound. Now, I know some people like throwing a large number of stones into a glass house all at the same time, but I have found that someone does this to make enough noise to distract everyone else from the truth itself. 

Normally I'd be on a fellow examiners side, but I am seeing you getting out of hand and throwing a lot of stones. 

Makes me ask why? 

In the probation conditions I see, there is nothing in them (when they are allowed to have internet access) that says it's a violation for looking at a website that does not have pornography on it. Nor does it state that they can't look at anti polygraph.org. They may be convicted of a crime, but this doesn't mean that they all rights striped from them. 

As a polygraph examiner do I want my examinee to look at this website just to try to beat a test because they're lying? No.

As a polygraph examiner do I want to restrict an examinee, who intends to be truthful, from obtaining information about a test that their freedom rests on? No

I don’t agree with everything that is said on this web site, this web site does contain some very accurate information on what polygraph measures and how it measures it. I would rather them read it hear for nothing so they can pay for their polygraph then give the rectal cavity in Oklahoma money for information that is laughable at best. 

Back to you though. Why does it seem to me that you are "protesting too much"? What do you have to lose here? Why do you seem to be trying to scare someone from exercising a God given right to free speech, George or anyone else's?

By the tone of your email I would say that your psychological set is pined on this. Once again why?

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 20^th, 2008 at 8:43pm:


Actually, I only have a few questions to ask of them regarding their post-conviction polygraph screening. To the best of my knowledge, convicted sex offenders are not required to swear omerta to keep the secrets of the polygraph community.

Quote:


No, I did not realize that which you claim. Please document this assertion.

        George,

  What possible purpose legitimate purpose could you have for wanting to be in contact with these sex offenders in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area.  If we take your website materials as evidence, it could only lead to the conclusion that you want to interfere with, undermind, or sabotage; the court ordered programs they need to be a part of.  Did you realize that in contacting you they know well that it would be a violation of their program ?  The restrictions of their program is trumped by your desire to communicate with them, and could cause them to be revoked.  You can not hide behind your desire for research with this group as a defense.  Courts have punished "Enablers" in the past, and with this writing and others you are now fully informed and on notice !   Let the chips fall where they may. 

       Hi Guard Dog,

    You must be a mutt !!!  I have no such rage as you have mentioned.  I sit and write from my computer in a calm and considered manner.  It is you who use psycho-babble terms here which would lead me to believe that YOU either are in treatment, or have been.  In regard to absorbing actual "Information", there wasn't much other than opinion vs. information for consideration.   

    In regard to what you feel is an attack on the moderator, I have only pointed out what is in fact the legal status of these sex offenders in their being wards of the court / convicts; and that the solicitation of them is in and of itself for THEM not in compliance with their program, and that nothing good can come from it.  George's obsession, and perhaps yours too, with the use of the polygraph has lead to his crawling into the gutter with these sex offenders for that passsion, as well as his apparent relations with radical Islamic types verbally about this subject, and that both groups are intent on harm to this nation in both the micro and macro.   

   Now really Guard Dog, you do seem on guard a bit too much, and not much more intelligent than my pure breed of dog.  One can find your lot at any dog pound if they choose to save same from lethal injection / disposal, but I choose to invest my time and efforts in a better breed which has proven itself over time.   

   Perhaps the problem I see here with You and George is that you begin with a false premise; That All Sides Are of Equal Value in This.
I say B.S. to that !!!!   The ruling and opinions of the Judges in these cases are NOT equal to those sex offenders opinions.  George's desire to "Seek Information" is NOT equal to the sentence in place by such a Judge for these people to remain in compliance.  Your attempt to say I am somehow un-American is NOT equal to what and who I am and what I have done FOR America.  George's and perhaps your opinion about the use of the polygraph is NOT superior or even equal to the importance of this nation's desire for national security.  He / You offer no solutions for that, and fail to see that good men and women of equal or superior dedication to this country are working with the BEST tools they have, despite your tearing away at that.   

  When you line yourself up with convicted child molesters (domestically) and radical middle eastern Islamics (while abroad), and encourage them both toward activity which is NOT in the best interest of public safety and national security then you are no less than an enemy of the nation I know; and both in the foreign and domestic sense of that word.   

  In parting Mutt, my blood pressure is 120/80, and you don't possess what it takes to move my blood pressure where you thought it might be.  You appear to be a common denominator in a world seeking to reward better people.  Maybe you'll someday rise to the occassion.
For now you have alligned yourself with he who would demonize some of the best and brightest in the intel community, and who seeks to baptize the child molesters, and turn over part of his former family's treasure to the enemies of this nation.  Your rewards are NOT in heaven.

NoLieGuy,

Unfortunately you did not process all the information in my post. I can feel your blood pressure rise, your heart beat race and sweat running down your brow. Is this deception?

I am not on a mission nor do I condone bad behaviors. I have nothing to protect or to hide. It seems maybe you do. I hope not. Your posts seem to suggest we no longer live in America and everyone should just believe what you want them to believe. I believe they call that being a controller.

If attacking me, as an observer, makes you feel better from rage one could wonder if you need treatment? 

I have no more to add to this site. Say what you need to and move on.
Maybe try and get some rest this weekend...

       Guard Dog & George,

    In your last statements you seem to forget that a standing Judge who is the arbitrator of Truth in our democracy has made a decision that these convicted sex offenders WILL comply with their treatment program of which polygraph is a part.  You DO NOT have a right to interfere in that program as these people no longer have full civil rights that others enjoy.  In doing so you are in contempt of the court, and for which a warrant should be issued for your arrest.  These Sex Offenders suffer from a psychological disorder, are wards of the court, and your interference in that process for no good possible outcome is in defiance of the goals established for these people in treatment.   

  Guard Dog, you seem to forget that some of these Sex Offenders are on probation for life, and YES they do have something to hide, like where they are at any given time in regard toward working their way up toward their next victim.  Remember, there is nobody in the equation that claims they can CURE these folks; only that they can be treated and deactivated from acting out.  George is no less than implanting in them the suggestion that they can act out, get away with it, and NOT be caught.  If you don't see the logic in that, then you either are a sex offender (hopefully not), not a father / grandfather, or too dam liberal.  In either case, the function of this site should be seperate and apart from encouraging this special catagory of dangerous felons whom we all find unacceptable in society.  Remember, without their program the ONLY alternative is to warehouse them in Jails / Prisons.      

TheNoLieGuy4U,

Those who profess to be "dedicated to truth" (American Polygraph Association motto) should not fear scrutiny.

Contrary to your suggestion, AntiPolygraph.org has not "outed" anyone who has provided information in confidence. It is true that some past and present polygraphers' identities have been disclosed here: it has only happened rarely, and it has been the consequence of outstandingly bad behavior on their part, including deliberately spreading disinformation. For examples, see:

• Outing the Trolls: The Polygraph Peanut Gallery (A Cast of Characters Starring Eric S. Johnson, Raymond Nelson, Donna Taylor, Ted Todd, and Louis Irving Rovner)
• DEA and Anal Pad
• U.S. Military Computer Systems Used to Post Disinformation on AntiPolygraph.org
• "How to Sting tho Polygraph" eBook.

Again, any sex offenders subject to polygraph screening in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex are invited to contact me in strict confidence.

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote:

Many who read this site feel it is bad enough that you respond to such people who are self identified as sex offenders on this site, but in this case you are actually soliciting for them.  Why ?  Just because you do not like some particular Examiner or company in the Dallas area ?  Not good enough to interfere with a Judges order / sentencing, and it shows a calous disregard for the safety of children in the Dallas area for your own selfish desire to undermine the polygraph.  You actually put yourself above the safety of those children in your obsession.  You blatently seek to open the legal "container" on the legal "containment" model.  The eyes of Texas are upon YOU.  !!!!



It's understandable that you have a problem with SO's passing a poly. Harming a child in any way is tragic and unacceptable. The problem with your statement is it appears you believe everyone tested will have something to hide. That assumption, if it is what it is, cannot be verified with a painted statement or a glorified notion. 

I do not believe that George is trying to protect an SO's abhorrent behavior and put a child in danger. I also believe that a small percentage of dangerous SO's would pass a poly even without the info on this site. Also, there are a lot of SO's who have not offended a child. Still, that matter doesn't make it right. Nonetheless, the message I read was all SO's are child molesters. But we all know better than this.

It's not a matter of protecting SO's, I believe they need to be supervised and treated and serve out their punishment. However, I believe there is a realistic danger of one failing even though the person is being truthful. This being the case would put this individual in a situation of either making a false confession or denying the false accusation and be persecuted for it. Either way there is hell to pay for failing, even if one is being truthful. Is that fair? I think not. It's unfortunate that some folks on this site seem to pretend this would never happen.

The eye's of GOD are upon US...

     George,

   In your recent solicitation to communicate with convicted / registered sex offenders in the Dallas - Ft. Worth area; I was thinking why should you be trusted by them.  They have a program wherein they are not in jail and get to remain in society dealing with a psychological problem that has plagued them.  They have everything to lose by speaking with you which would be a direct violation of their program, which may equate to being revoked and jailed / imprisoned.

   Also, If I were such a person in he Dallas - Ft. Worth area reading that I would ask myself what trust should really be placed in YOU in your promise of confidential communication with them.  This because you, as previously stated, have betrayed your breatheran in the intelligence community.  Second, you promised anonimity to others on this site who you outed who had placed trust in you / this site.  All around then you are a high risk decision for someone to place any trust in at all; and especially a sex offender who has everything to lose, and you having nothing to lose by doing so. 

  Clearly, Post Conviction Sex Offenders coming to this site and seeking your assistance is equal to their moving one step further in the cycle of devience toward acting out again.  Thus my prior statement of your being the Patron Saint of Pedophiles.  Stay on the low road as the flood is coming.

      Honestly George, 

You wrote : Started by George W. Maschke | Post by George W. Maschke 
  "If you are a convicted sex offender on probation or deferred adjudication and are subject to mandatory polygraph screening in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, I would be interested in communicating with you privately regarding polygraph practices in the Metroplex. If you are a registered user of this message board, you can contact me by private message. Alternatively, I can be reached by e-mail to maschke@antipolygraph.org or by a variety of instant messaging programs, my contact information for which is linked at the bottom of this post. All communications will be kept confidential."

  Now Honestly !!!!  If I were the sentencing Judge in any sex offender's case who ordered compliance by them, and you came along and tried to undermine that------- Why shouldn't the Judge hold you in comtempt of his court ????  Further, if that person later admits that he spoke with you, and was inspired by you to use CM's, and further molested a child, then why should you not be regarded as a co-conspirator in that crime.   

  Many who read this site feel it is bad enough that you respond to such people who are self identified as sex offenders on this site, but in this case you are actually soliciting for them.  Why ?  Just because you do not like some particular Examiner or company in the Dallas area ?  Not good enough to interfere with a Judges order / sentencing, and it shows a calous disregard for the safety of children in the Dallas area for your own selfish desire to undermine the polygraph.  You actually put yourself above the safety of those children in your obsession.  You blatently seek to open the legal "container" on the legal "containment" model.  The eyes of Texas are upon YOU.  !!!!
   

What's up George?   

A little esoteric, aren't we? I thought your interest in an open discussion about polygraph extended to all?

Did, someone in Dallas tick you off?

Sackett

If you are a convicted sex offender on probation or deferred adjudication and are subject to mandatory polygraph screening in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, I would be interested in communicating with you privately regarding polygraph practices in the Metroplex. If you are a registered user of this message board, you can contact me by private message. Alternatively, I can be reached by e-mail to maschke@antipolygraph.org or by a variety of instant messaging programs, my contact information for which is linked at the bottom of this post. All communications will be kept confidential.