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Topic Summary - Displaying 22 post(s).
Posted by: fatman1955
Posted on: Apr 27th, 2009 at 11:54pm
  Mark & Quote
It has been a long time since I have ventured back to relook at this story. I do periodically look at some of the stories of similar people who have has the same or worst experiences than I had.  Then you have idiots like “milguy” for whatever reasons want to provoke an argument. I am not sure what his agenda is, but I am sure he or possibly she has. I have no problem with anyone believing in this worthless voodoo science, but don’t question the facts of my experience. Two points are evident; “milguy” has a failure to comprehend and has poor math skills. I have taken great pride being a government employee for now almost 35 years. To do the math for you “milguy” that is including my military time, which I have retired, and being a government employee.  Yes, I have had my security clearance renewed again since the original story. I never said I was applying for an FBI agent position, but was a support position. At the time of failing the polygraph it did bother me because I told the truth. The good news is when one door closes another one opens. I was promoted and now make more money than I could have ever made with the FBI and better benefits. My job still brings me times to work with our local FBI and because of my unpleasant experience continue to respect them. Many of them have expressed their distaste for the need of the polygraph. There is no use to keep beating this dead horse because for me it is what is. I am sure a good person was finally found for the position that I was selected for. In the end it all did work out. I would like to thank AntiPolygraph. Org anf George for helping me through this. There were times I was really pissed off, but reading others stories really helped me get through the ordeal. So “milguy” what is your story? Cry
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Mar 11th, 2009 at 12:46pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
milguy,

According to the FBI website, the maximum age for newly appointed special agents is 37. But the Bureau has other jobs, such as intelligence analyst and language specialist, that don't have such a low age cap.
Posted by: milguy
Posted on: Mar 11th, 2009 at 11:55am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
of course, fatmans whole story is bogus to begin with, and it is easily provable.  you can't begin active duty service till AT LEAST 17, more likely 18.  almost 25 years of military experience...that equals about 43 years old.  the MAX age for application to the FBI is 39...not wonder you got turned down....do your research next time before you post crap like this.  and before you try to apply for a job you don't qualify
Posted by: 1904 - Ex Member
Posted on: May 30th, 2007 at 4:33pm
  Mark & Quote
EosJupiter wrote on Jul 27th, 2006 at 7:33pm:
fatman1955,

By all means take what steps have to be done to protect yourself. Like most of us here on this medium we have been wronged by a polygrapher playing judge, jury, and executioner. And I know I still bristle at the thought of a neophyte deciding my veracity and honor.
But learn from this and help spread the word on this website. 

The part of your tale that I found interesting is, they were still using the old analog polygraphs. Has anyone else noted the use of this ?, as I thought and know firsthand that they mostly use the new digital polygraphs. Hmmm, I wonder if their is any correlation to hiring and use of a specific polygraph. IE non-hires get the old analog ones, hires get the new ones. Just some grist for the mill. As I believe that they already know who is going to get hired long before they ever get to the polygraph. I wish you much success.

Regards ....



Mmmm. not surprising that those b****ds still use analog p/g. The examiner can manipulate the chart 
ANYWAY he wants to, by making his Q & A (pen) marks anywhere he wants to. He can produce pass or
fail charts at will. It is  far more  difficult to manipulate a digital p/g but not impossible. And if the subject
did not sign and date the charts before the paper was torn, then he's really screwed - if in the hands of
a dishonest egomaniacal p/g examiner.

Shit, these guys who do P/E's for the bureau's really do play at being God.
Posted by: fatman1955
Posted on: Mar 13th, 2007 at 1:51am
  Mark & Quote
Well it finally came today, my FBI polygraph result request under the Freedom of information Act. The results really surprised me to the point of anger. Three areas were inconclusive which were  has any group or organization directed you to seek employment with the FBI, have I ever been in contacted by a representative of a non US intelligence service, and have I ever provided classified information to an unauthorized individual. In the second series, I was accused of deception for selling illegal drugs, violating the FBI guidelines for illegal drugs, and deliberately withholding important information on my application. The end of the report stated, “during the post test interview, the applicant made no admission.” There is a reason for this, because there was nothing to admit.  I did not do any of the alleged allegations because they are not true.  What a paradox! I guess my only recourse is to submit a formal letter to the Director of the FBI to contest these results and have a copy placed in my official FBI folder. What really saddens me is that after dedicating almost 30 years of my life to the military and US government, one test tarnishes my reputation and credibility and there is very little that can be done.   The battle over the validity of the polygraph will continue for a while I suspect, but for me I am just another statistic of junk science known as the polygraph.
Posted by: squeaky_clean - Ex Member
Posted on: Sep 4th, 2006 at 2:53am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Just know that you're not the only good, enthusiastic candidate who has been flushed because of a failed poly.  I had a similar experience with the US Secret Service and also a local agency in Virginia.  Despite being truthful, I was told that there were problems on the drug question with my Secret Service poly.  On the local department's poly in Virginia, I was told that there was a problem with my breathing and that I was trying to use countermeasures (I was not).

There's no telling how many bright, educated, excellent candidates lose their chance to serve in a law enforcement capacity because they're being subjected to this ridiculous test.
Posted by: G Scalabr
Posted on: Aug 14th, 2006 at 4:57pm
  Mark & Quote
Quote:
My first so-called exam was conducted with a computerized version of the instrument, but the follow-up utilized the analog version. Who knows if it even worked or not?  What difference would it make since the FBI doesn't pass  applicants on retests?


Before technology can increase accuracy of the process, an exclusive relationship between things measured during polygraphy and deception will have to be established.

Until then, the use of computerized instruments amounts to nothing more than "Garbage In, Garbage Out."

The only advantage that computerized polygraph instruments bring to the table is that they may intimidate some examinees who lack knowledge of polygraphy but still doubt accuracy of the process.

The examiner can take the tack that "yes, we had issues in the past, but the new computerized instruments have addressed them."

Still, none of this will fool those familiar with the materials on this Website.
Posted by: polyfool
Posted on: Aug 2nd, 2006 at 3:59am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Eos,

My first so-called exam was conducted with a computerized version of the instrument, but the follow-up utilized the analog version. Who knows if it even worked or not?  What difference would it make since the FBI doesn't pass  applicants on retests?

Fatman1955,

Your hunch about FBI hiring managers hating the use of the polygraph in the hiring process seems on target. A former mgr. told me he hated not being able to hire top notch job candidates all because of the polygraph. He said he'd had run-ins with the head of the poly dept. over this very thing, whom by the way, he said is a complete idiot--go figure. 

Good luck to you. Just be glad you don't work for an entity foolish enough to rely on the polygraph to choose "the best and the brightest."
Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jul 31st, 2006 at 7:56pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
polyfool wrote on Jul 30th, 2006 at 9:49pm:
Eos Jupiter, 

I thought I saw a post by you either on this thread or another about the FBI using computer and analog polygraph machines. They still use both, unless things have recently changed. I had an exam with each--digital and analog. Analog is probably being phased out gradually, likely budget issues. Too bad the agency didn't use a little common sense and scrap its pre-employment screening program instead of investing taxpayer $$ in the digital versions of the absurd, worthless machines.


Polyfool,

I thought they did in all of there analog devices, and your absolutely right, a waste of mine and yours tax dollars. 

Regards ...
Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jul 31st, 2006 at 4:36am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
fatman1955,

You are right on so many levels from your post that to try and point out any one would be an injustice. I do feel for you now though, that you have a file on record with the FBI. Unfortuately it really won't hurt you if you are going to retire from the military. But it will haunt you afterwards. But do spread the word on this site and the voodoo that is the polygraph. Contrary to certain polygraphers who visit us here, you more than prove the bad choices the feds are making.  Much success and thanks for serving.

Regards ...
Posted by: fatman1955
Posted on: Jul 31st, 2006 at 3:53am
  Mark & Quote
Thanks for all the constructive and insightful inputs from new and senior members. There is more to this story that now may be a good time to disclose. I was somewhat knowledgeable with the use of the polygraph test prior to my test. As a former counterintelligence agent, I saw the polygraph used on several occasions on individuals, both foreign and domestic, concerning situations involving national security. Even then, most polygraphists viewed the device as an effective interrogation tool versus a barometer of truth. I presently work at a major military installation providing intelligence support toward the war on terrorism. I sit on various joint anti-terrorism working, many times sponsored by the FBI. Although I have the utmost respect for my local FBI counterparts, it is hard to look them in the eyes now without some disgust at the way I was treated. My application was in the FBI system for almost a year with comments saying, “pending background investigation.” After I called requesting my status, I was notified two days later to schedule my polygraph. The location I hade to go was over 360 miles where I lived and cost me around $250.00 out of my pocket. What really disturbs me is the FBI blatantly disregard of applicants with special skills that would enhance the countries ability to proactively defend against foreign terrorist threats. There has to be a point where Congress and the President order oversight of this shortcoming which has a direct impact on national security. The problem existing throughout State and Federal agencies are budget constraints.  Work forces are being reduced only to put more responsibilities on less trained existing personnel within these organizations.  The only thing the polygraph has done is exclude good and competent employees based on voodoo Cold War/Post 911 paranoia. In the end there are no winners, but losers, the FBI (to include other Federal agencies) and scared victims of the polygraph.  I am curious to wonder how polygraph operators feel playing career Gods, not knowing they are contributing to degraded national security.  I would like to see the polygraph ended. Not because I did not get a job with the FBI, but it is a waste of my tax dollars. I agree there must be a stringent standard to work within the intelligence and law enforcement community. A better option is conducting through background investigations and pre-employment interviews. I have no desire to take another polygraph because I did not trust it in the first place and who would want to work for an agency that advocates that kind of treatment of employees. I guess in America you are innocent until proven guilty unless you have a polygraph, you are guilty until. You have no expectation for appeal, but are branded a liar for life. It is awful that not one Congress man/woman or House of Representative member has used this argument as a campaign issue. If polled, I would venture that most FBI personnel feel the polygraph is not accurate and feel threaten by it.   Cry
Posted by: polyfool
Posted on: Jul 30th, 2006 at 9:49pm
  Mark & Quote
Fatman1955,

Is is quite a shock to learn the government is using such an unreliable tool as the polygraph to screen its applicants. Not to mention the insult of telling the truth and then having an FBI polygraph examiner look you in the eye, point his finger at you and call you a liar. There are lots of people on this board who know exactly how you feel. Don't expect to get much answers when you recieve your polygraph charts and report--a lot of it is redacted. However, that should not discourage you from requesting every file the agency has on you as well as asking for a retest. If everyone they wrongly failed did so and contacted their representatives in Congress, it would be much harder for the agency to get away with what it's doing to honest, innocent people. 

Eos Jupiter, 

I thought I saw a post by you either on this thread or another about the FBI using computer and analog polygraph machines. They still use both, unless things have recently changed. I had an exam with each--digital and analog. Analog is probably being phased out gradually, likely budget issues. Too bad the agency didn't use a little common sense and scrap its pre-employment screening program instead of investing taxpayer $$ in the digital versions of the absurd, worthless machines.
Posted by: triple x
Posted on: Jul 30th, 2006 at 1:32am
  Mark & Quote
Drew,

Make no mistake about it; we are both on the same side here. I'm certainly not by any means a proponent of polygraph testing. I would first like to clarify a couple of points that I feel you misquoted me on, and/or taken completely out of context.

--------------------------------------
You quoted me as saying:
“The FBI actually has a computer-based program at the FBI DC Polygraph lab that they run all polygraphs through trying to detect polygraph countermeasures. The bureau is trying to establish a method for detecting countermeasures....”
-------------------------------------

I never said that the FBI DC Polygraph lab has a “reliable” computer based program for detecting polygraph countermeasures. 

What I said is: 

The FBI does have a computer-based program at the FBI DC Polygraph lab that they run all polygraphs through “trying” [key word] to detect polygraph countermeasures. The bureau is “trying” to establish a method for detecting countermeasures.

This is true, as my polygraph charts were ran through the referenced computer program approximately a full week after completing my FBI pre-employment polygraph exam. I was already working with a bureau SOG field unit at the time of my polygraph exam.

The polygraph examiner had already been contacted via phone [by his own admission] by my SSA and Unit Chief prior to my scheduled poly exam. When I reported to the field office to take the polygraph, the polygraph examiner was very friendly and supportive of the SSA and UC that had previously contacted him.

We sit and talked at great length about some of the SA’s, SSA’s and SOG support personnel that we both knew. The polygraph examiner eventually started the exam, and I was tested on three or four different sets of charts all consisting of the same questions simply rearranged on each set of charts.

There was no post test interview or interrogation; no questions at all, and the polygraph examiner told me that he did not see any problems on any of the charts that he tested me on. The examiner actually told me that I did extremely well on the polygraph exam, and he told me that in his “personal opinion” I passed the polygraph exam with flying colors. However, he did tell me that the charts would have to be mailed to the FBI DC Polygraph lab for QA purposes.

The examiner walked me back out to the application coordinator’s area, and announced that I did beautifully on the polygraph and gave my application coordinator and myself the “thumb’s up”, further indicating that I had passed the exam.

At approximately a week and a half later, I received a call from the application coordinator asking me if I could return for a retest, and volunteered that there must have been something wrong with the polygraph machine. He/she did not provide me with any more details at that time. Not thinking anything about the phone call, reported to the field office as instructed. Upon arrival to the field office, I was then informed by the same polygraph examiner that administered my first polygraph exam, that the DC lab had checked my charts to confirm his findings, and was told that I actually did “too good to be true” and that “nobody does that good”. The rest is history as detailed in my previous posts describing my personal experience.


Therefore, regardless of what some people may think or believe about the DC lab having a computer-based program that all charts are ran through, they certainly have one. Whether or not the program is accurate with regard to detecting countermeasures, you have already stated your opinion. However, the program definitely detected or rather “suspected” cm’s on my charts regardless whether or not it was right or wrong. 

Regardless of who believes what, I did not get hired by the bureau because of that DC lab computer program… not because of the polygraph examiner that administered my polygraph.

I don’t mind being quoted on anything I post on this message board. However, in the future I only ask that you not take what I post out of context.


v/r
triple x
Posted by: Drew Richardson
Posted on: Jul 29th, 2006 at 5:23pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
triple x,

You write in part:
Quote:
...
The FBI actually has a computer-based program at the FBI DC Polygraph lab that they run all polygraphs through trying to detect polygraph countermeasures. The bureau is trying to establish a method for detecting countermeasures....


The Bureau can neither reliably detect truth nor deception in the absence of countermeasures with its polygraph screening programs.  The notion that it has a computer-driven algorithm that can reliably detect countermeasure application (a function secondary to the failed primary function) is so ludicrous as to defy imagination.  This, of course, has nothing to do with any willingness that might exist to blindly accuse any given examinee of countermeasure use in the midst of such ignorance.

Posted by: triple x
Posted on: Jul 29th, 2006 at 6:28am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
matlambert,

The FBI actually has a computer-based program at the FBI DC Polygraph lab that they run all polygraphs through trying to detect polygraph countermeasures. The bureau is trying to establish a method for detecting countermeasures.

That said, if a set of polygraph charts look too good to be true, the FBI looks for the tale-tale signs of countermeasures. Such as controlled breathing rates, "spikes" on the charts at the moment an examinee is told a test has began, and again when being told the test is over. Also, they look for trends on all control question responses, thus this is why you should follow the directions in "TLBTLD" and not produce too strong of a response on the second and third set of charts.

Sometimes a particular polygraph examiner may think an examinee actually passed a polygraph exam, only to have the DC lab come back and suspect countermeasures were employed. 

v/r
triple x
Posted by: matlambert
Posted on: Jul 27th, 2006 at 11:25pm
  Mark & Quote
I've had the misfortune of sitting in for two polygraphs, both with horrific results.  First polygrapher advised me the test went well only to have D.C. send it back inconclusive.  Ding, ding, ding.  How useful is a polygraph if the standards between polygraphers differs?  One says good, other says not so good.  Who's right?  Second polygrapher asked a completely different series of questions relating to my current job position with the ridiculous standard of 'outside normal duties'  and even asked a personal question regarding my integrity with my wife.  I knew where I was headed after that.  The letter.  I'm appelaing both polygraphs and optimism is low but the advice I received was never stop.  Complain, complain, complain to SACs, local politicians, D.C. politicians even the A.P.A.  Let them know the injustice the FBI applies to polygraphs.  As local P.D. the polygraph can be used by well trained investigators (not the FBI) as a wonderful interview/interrogation technique based on the idea that additional investigation is required to substantiate polygraph claims.  Thanks for letting me vent.
Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jul 27th, 2006 at 7:33pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
fatman1955,

By all means take what steps have to be done to protect yourself. Like most of us here on this medium we have been wronged by a polygrapher playing judge, jury, and executioner. And I know I still bristle at the thought of a neophyte deciding my veracity and honor.
But learn from this and help spread the word on this website. 

The part of your tale that I found interesting is, they were still using the old analog polygraphs. Has anyone else noted the use of this ?, as I thought and know firsthand that they mostly use the new digital polygraphs. Hmmm, I wonder if their is any correlation to hiring and use of a specific polygraph. IE non-hires get the old analog ones, hires get the new ones. Just some grist for the mill. As I believe that they already know who is going to get hired long before they ever get to the polygraph. I wish you much success.

Regards ....
Posted by: Bill Crider
Posted on: Jul 27th, 2006 at 6:45pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
I successfully appealed my Lie result and got a re-test, tho I failed it too. But if you want a copy of my letter, let me know.
Posted by: Fair Chance
Posted on: Jul 27th, 2006 at 3:14pm
  Mark & Quote
Dear Fatman 1955,

Please follow Triple-X's advice and follow up to the address of the person who was on the heading of your "not within acceptable parameters" letter.

Please keep these points in mind:

1. Be polite but firm.  Have a trusted friend or family member objectively read it and try not to show hostility (least it be used against you in the future in a "see, what did I tell you about that guy" by the polygraph examiner).  Be open to suggestions about changing your style even if you need them to know how angry your are.

2.  Write a draft memo immediately while it is still fresh in your mind.  Do not put off doing this because you do not want to "live" the event again.  You are living it again everytime you think about it and placing it all into words on a draft helps you to admit the cr_p happened and will help you in two, five, or ten years from now if you are questioned about it.

3. Send your letter contesting the outcome via certified mail and keep a copy of the contents with the return receipt in a safe, lock box, or with your records of your security applications and findings for quick retrieval in the future.

4.  Send a FOI letter via return receipt to the address on the FBI application website for FOI.  If you cannot find one, go to the main FBI website and use that one. The sooner you do this, the harder it is for the FBI to say that they cannot find them do the amount of time that has gone by.

5.  Keep in mind that you can request another polygraph exam but the odds are heavily stacked against you for an examiner to overturn another examiner's failure.  The Good-Ole-Boys network likes to cover each other's back and thus perpetuate the polygraph myth within the FBI.  This is your choice.  The saying goes, you can't succeed if you don't try, but the person who invented that saying do not ever go for an FBI pre-screening exam.

Good Luck.

Posted by: Bill Crider
Posted on: Jul 27th, 2006 at 8:50am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
I had much the same experience, more or less.
Posted by: triple x
Posted on: Jul 27th, 2006 at 7:15am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Fatman,

I hate to hear of your experience with the poly...however. This is not uncommon. Many people have been labeled as liars when telling the complete truth during a poly exam. The bad part about it is that the information regarding your polygraph will be maintained in your FBI HQ file.

It will come up during your next 5-year PR review for TS, or SAR if you are on a SAP program. If you only have a secret w/out SAR access, it will come up when they run a NAC for your 10-year secret clearance.

Protest the results, and proclaim your innocence in writing to the FBI field office that administered your poly. You want this to be documented in your FBI HQ file when your security clearance renewal comes due.

Fight back, and Good luck.

v/r
triple x
Posted by: fatman1955
Posted on: Jul 27th, 2006 at 2:43am
  Mark & Quote
Today, I received the ominous brown envelop rescinding my verbal conditional offer for employment with the FBI. The reasons were the results of my polygraph examination were not within acceptable parameters, but no other specifics were provided. I have worked for the US military for almost 30 years which has required me to maintain a security clearance up to Top Secret. I have worked as a counterintelligence agent and civilian security specialist. I have had to undergo numerous periodic reinvestigations over the past 25 years to maintain my security clearance. At no time did any issues ever surface that caused me to have this position of trust suspended or revoked.  Unfortunately now based on the results of a pseudoscience device, I am labeled a liar. The experience was awful and the sad part about the whole ordeal is I told the truth!  My experience with the FBI polygraph can only be explained as being mentally raped. I realize that this was only a job interview, but I can not get out of my head. The incident keeps playing over and over in my head, especially at night. It really bothers me because I have not done anything wrong and was truthful during the polygraph. Enough feeling sorry for myself, here is my story. 

I showed up to the FBI building early and after sitting in the waiting area for around 45 minutes I was fingerprinted.  I was then given a pre-screening interview by the FBI agent who conducted my polygraph. The questions were basic about my life and military service.  One question asked was if I had ever done any research on the polygraph. The agent alluded if I had, it was useless. He commented that information on the Internet was false and he could tell if I attempted to use countermeasures. I had to sign a statement saying if any suspicion of countermeasures being used would result in failure of the test.  The agent’s questioning style was monotone and sounded scripted. This process took approximately 20 minutes. I was then instructed that during the polygraph exam only he and I would be in the room and no audio or video recording of the test would be conducted. In other words no official records of what went on in the room would exist. 

I was then taken into a small room with one desk that had an analog polygraph machine on it and three chairs.  The first part of the exam consisted of the agent explaining how the polygraph worked.  Again a scripted speech about how accurate the device was and could not be beat. I then was moved to another chair facing an off color white wall and wired up for the test. The agent had me pick a number 34 – 38 and write it down on a small piece of paper. He instructed me not to show him the number because the test would identify which number it was. This must be the infamous, “stimulation test”. I was then instructed the answer yes or no and not to move during the test. The numbers asked progressed from 30 – 39. This is when the whole process became strange. The number that was picked I intentionally answered with emphasis, but I also answered another wrong number the same way. The agent instructed me the test was over and I could move. After a minute or so, he handed me a torn piece of paper with my number on it. It was the number I had picked. The agent showed me the test sheet for the test and asked me what was special about it. Ironically, the only spike on the sheet was the number I had picked, but what happened to the wrong number I had answered the same way? There is no doubt in my mind this was setup to give the perception of polygraph accuracy. Sadly, I feel it more deception.

The next phase was the actual test in four separate questioning sessions. The agent told me the questions that were going to be asked for each.  During round one, I was told to breathe normal. When I told the agent I was breathing normal and asked him how he wanted me to breath, I could tell he became agitated. I have always been a shallow breather. I also have sleep apnea which causes me to use a breathing machine at night while sleeping.  During round two, again I was accused of abnormal breathing and he told me if I continued he would stop the test. Again I told the agent I was breathing normal. During round three is where my fate was sealed for employment with the FBI. One of the questions was if I had ever intentionally left anything significant off my security application? I coughed when I answered. The agent asked me if there was a problem with that question. I told him no. I coughed because my mouth was dry due to medication I had to take for high blood pressure. This medication was told to him during my pre-screening interview. During round four the question was asked again and I answered normal.  The agent instructed me the official test was over and he had to go have my charts reviewed and left the room.

After about 10 minutes, the agent returned and said my charts were troubling; especially the questions about leaving significant information off my security application. He told me I did not pass polygraph, but FBI HQ would have to make the final decision. The agent pulled his chair up close to me and said, “Is there anything you want to discuss and get off your chest?” I commented no because all questions asked were answered truthfully. He then gave me the friendly pitch about how much experience I had and what a value I would be to the FBI. He offered that if I told him what the problem was he may be able to help. Again, I said I had nothing to add because all questions were answered truthfully. The agent took me to the front reception desk and then I was then escorted out the building like a criminal. 

This is one job offer I should have passed on. I now have an official FBI folder for doing nothing but telling the truth and may have to explain this when my periodic security clearance comes up. I can’t even challenge any of the allegations made against me because I was never shown the polygraph charts or given any specific official reasons for my failing the polygraph test.  I have since requested copies under the Freedom of Information Act & Privacy Act for all documents related to this incident. I doubt if it will do any good, but I am interested in exactly what I was accused of that made me fail. 
 
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