Collectivist wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 11:17pm:


The only two peer-reviewed countermeasure studies available (by Charles Honts and others, cited with abstracts in the bibliography of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector) considered, respectively, 1) pressing the toes to the floor and tongue-biting, and 2) pressing the toes to the floor or tongue-biting and mental countermeasures (counting backward rapidly by 7s). No one countermeasure seemed to outperform the others. Although the anal sphincter contraction was not considered, I see no reason to suppose that it is superior.

Tongue-biting can be accomplished with minimal movement by biting down slowly on the side of the tongue (not the middle).

>>Wouldn't the butt clench countermeasure be the most >>effective?

 
>>Why do you believe this would be the case?

Because if you walk in and see that there isn't a sensor on the chair, the butt clench is an undetectable physical countermeasure that seems guaranteed to produce a response. While mental countermeasures seem less guaranteed to me. I don't know about you but  thinking about getting beaten up or stabbed looses it menace after one or two run throughs, I just dont think I can make the image real enough in 5 seconds. Further, it just doesn't seem to be time enough to get fristrated by mental math.  I like the  the tounge bite but I don't see how you can do it without detectable jaw movement. 

Apologies for putting words in your mouth then.

Wallerstein wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 5:26pm:


Actually, no, I wouldn't. CQT polygraphy is completely invalid as a diagnostic test for deception in both situations, as explained in Chapter 1 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

Retcopper,

I'm certainly not trying to distort facts. But I don't think I misunderstood Spark's point, either. I agree that a polygraph outcome may later be confirmed (or disconfirmed) by other evidence (including a post-polygraph confession, as in the example Spark provided). My point is simply that because polygraphy has no scientific basis, a suspect should never be considered "cleared" based merely on a passed polygraph examination.

I think that even George would say that the polygraph has more validity when it comes to criminal investigations--i.e., in situations where the scope is inherently limited--e.g., were you in Dayton, Ohio on the night of...Did you murder .... Etc.  

When it comes to pre-employment screening though it is simply a scientific fact that the polygraph is flawed.  Polygraphers would prefer to think that there are no false positives and that George is lying...that there really is something in his past that caused him to fail his FBI polys.  What a crock.  Look at this resume and the efforts he took after "failing" to remedy the situation.  

Bottom line is many people are deemed deceptive by polygraphers in pre employment screenings when they are telling the polygrapher the bald truth.  That's what it boils down to.  Pure and simple.  The rest is horseshit.

George

  You missed Sparks point or you are trying to distort the facts. He said that evidence later became available that CONFIRMED  his determination of the polygraph test.  The evidencee bolstered the poly results.  If the evidence didn't turn up the end result would still be the same.

Last week I tested a subject who denied a charge. Litlte did I know that two days before she took the test a letter that she wrote admiiting to the offense was found.   

I determined that she was deceptive adn I  found out the next day about the note. The  following day I interviewed her about it and she confessed to the allegation. Now that is also a confirmation of the polygraph exam, just like Sparks example.

spark wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 8:35am:


Spark,

If you succeeded in convincing someone who had borne false witness to recant his accusation, that is wonderful, and I congratulate you. For a criminal interrogator, I think there could hardly be a more rewarding experience than to vindicate a person who has been wrongly accused. But it is wrong to suppose that such an experience imparts validity to polygraphy (which, again, has no scientific basis).

Because of polygraphy's unreliability, a person falsely accused who submits to a polygraph interrogation might very well become a false positive, wrongly reinforcing suspicions against him. Conversely, a liar might pass the polygraph, either through the random error associated with polygraphy (as did "Angel of Death" Charles Cullen and "Green River Killer" Gary Leon Ridgway) or through the use of countermeasures.

To the extent that investigators rely on the polygraph, they should understand that it is little more than an interrogational prop. While it may be useful for getting admissions/confessions from the naive and gullible, the chart readings themselves are evidence of nothing.

And, back to the original topic of this message thread, by no means should polygraph results be relied on to assess the honesty and integrity of applicants for employment.

spark wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 8:10am:


Spark, 

If you have folks that you have DQ'd using countermeasures, then have them come post and prove it with their rejection letters. Proof is what counts here, Prove your statements, otherwise like all the rest, your just a another no proof polygrapher. But I give you credit, you do have more to say then the run of the mill polygrapher who comes on to prove us wrong. Or take the challenge from George and go on Penn & Tellers Bullshit show and show us we are wrong. Not much of a UFO believer, but I bet this website is an unending source of irratation for you. Otherwise why are you here. And to the contrary its you polygraphers we find highly entertaining. But then again we anti types (UFO Chasers) aren't allowed on your pro website. 

And what have we done for mankind today, put a stop to the false positives by the BS machine and gameshow host polygraphers. Bottom line only the weak break, and the secret to beating you is never give up anything. And no job is worth being polygraphed for. And again the more problems we cause for the polygraph community, eventually your deck of cards (stim test) will fall.

Regards 

Lets say…. “I” say “YOU” did this and that...”you” say no I didn't.. and then you take a polygraph TEST that shows “your” not lying about not doing this and that.  Then subsequently, “I” am called back in and told I'm not being truthful about George and it is time to come clean...accept some...accountability (I love that word).  Shortly there after, “I” say your right, George didn't do this and that, I made that $hit up...sorry.  If George didn't trust in the exam and didn't come in and take the fricken test, and been cleared, there would have been NO reason to ever not believe “me” because George was fingered in this crime for a reason, he's a little shady, and everyone knows it, and it would have been/was assumed I am credible and if George didn't want to exonerate himself, well...that's on George.  Maybe he wouldn’t have never been "convicted" of said allegation, but who cares, he still would have had to check "yes" to have you ever been charged for this and that, and NOW HE DOESN'T.  That scenario happened twice for me today...now I ask, what good have you done for mankind today?

spark wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 8:13am:


If there was evidence apart from polygraph results that cleared two people of wrongdoing, then it is that evidence, and not polygraph chart readings, that exculpated them. Polygraphy has no scientific basis, and "test" outcomes are evidence of nothing. The investigator who relies on polygraph results to exclude suspects is a fool.

Quote:


Not when it is shortly there after confirmed.  Just face it George, not all of your rants and raves perfectly fit into the square hole.

Hmmm...seems like a rather petty retort.  Little screen name twist, then a “these are facts” and then you’re on to your next UFO chase.  I am not a member of your “we say so cooperation.”  I already told you why I am here…entertainment.  Fox news isn’t cutting it tonight.  I only have one question for you to chew on…how do the guilty suppress guilty knowledge?  If that isn’t possible, then the only person you are attempting to screw with is the innocent…and if you and your UFO chasing clones aren’t “really” false positives (I don’t think the average person buys your “I promise’s” and “I say so’s” , but instead, think to themselves…those are just persons with DQ’ing issues that ultimately caused them problems on their tests), which of course led you to form the sour grapes committee… then the only persons your hurting is others trying to get a job you couldn’t get (because when they do get caught using CM’s they get DQ’d…just look at your own forum)…because of course, past indiscretions you haven’t accepted accountability for.  Sounds like a pretty asinine thing to do…why not just grab your marbles and go home.

spark wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 7:11am:


The notion that a person can be "cleared" based on polygraph results is a dangerous delusion.

spark wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 7:11am:


And Spark Spelled backwards is Kraps .....

Thats what you roll when you listen to polygraphers with the same old spiel, and how good we polygraphers are, and you will be caught, and you will ruin your life, and your dog will die, and you'll contract a horrible disease. And we can detect mental countermeasures.
All stories to scare the uninformed and gullible. 

If your so good then why worry about such a small  irrelevant website. We have no validity in what we say, and obviously a great interrogator such as yourself isn't worried one little bit. Real interrogators don't need a polygraph to get the information required. 

The truth is spark, you and polygraph are beatable, you can't  detect countermeasures. ANd the best part is the numbers keep growing on folks who are prepared and well read on the polygraph, and won't buy in to your schtick !!! But I do find this highly entertaining as it gives me exercise in countering testimony.  Keep up the good work.

Regards ...

Two issues before you make your big decision.  First of all these UFO chasing people are here saying the “same old thing” every night for a reason, and it’s not because the polygraph kicked their ass…if you read through the BS it is more likely they are no different than your 13 year old son…they can’t accept accountability for past transgressions and WILL NOT accept your choosing to put them on restriction for Friday night.  It just can’t be…I can do WHATEVER I want and you can’t stop me…then reality hits…sorry Charlie.  My first point, they were all false positive’s because they “say so” nothing more.  Everyone of them line by line “say” they never did anything wrong…had nothing to worry about, ok, wish in one hand and shit in the other, see which one fills up quicker.   

2nd point and you brought it up.  You ever practice these techniques?    That’s right bro, your first day of training camp and your super bowl will all be combined and within 15 minutes of the most important time of your life…if this is your dream job.  Not just that, but during the entire test your going to be thinking, am I doing this CM shit right? Was that enough, too much, was that the right question, oh shoot I think he’s looking at me funny, etc., instead of where your mind should be on the questions.  That coupled with you don’t know what the hell your doing, etc., gives the presence of the turd floating in a punch bowl.  And they’ll tell you “they can’t see it” I say how do you know?  Because nobody accepts your challenge?  Hmmmm….ok…I really wonder why that is?  All I can say is this…if this is YOUR life goal and you truly have nothing to hide, walk into that test with confidence (like you already have) and just take the examination without the horseshit.  Because when you get caught acting like a dumb ass, you raise suspicion towards you (could be DQ’d automatically) and if you’re truly a worthy candidate you don’t need any problems that aren’t warranted.  Or you can roll the dice and blow up your super bowl.  But, if that happens…then you can be a new UFO chaser on this site…bitching and whining about the injustices of the man.   

Other than the same old $hit with no scientific basis, pseudoscience BS, is there anything new you have to give to this topic of polygraph?  What is your “basis” for being a false positive?  Because you say?  Why should anyone believe you?  Does anyone care?  There will always be more success stories than unsupported disenfranchisements…hell, just today I cleared two people of wrong doing….that’s about 1/5th of the full time UFO chasers you have on this site (same old people with the same old song and dance)  Big George chanting his rantings with his minions saying yeah yeah yeah…or the minions stating you talk about big George like that..he’s my Saint and Savior…yeah yeah yeah!  Hahahaha.  Why do I come?  Enterfrickentainment…I’m not much for checkers if you know what I mean!  Haha

What?!  ~Spark

Collectivist wrote on Mar 15^th, 2006 at 4:40am:


Why do you believe this would be the case?

Wouldn't the butt clench countermeasure be the most effective? Does anyone know if the FBI ever uses the device on the seat which is supposed to be able to detect this?

collider wrote on Mar 5^th, 2006 at 6:50pm:


Dear collider,

As Two Block has recoginized, you have moxie and bravado.  I wish you luck.

No one here will know how much in my lifetime I have fought against a stacked deck.  Most of the time it was for my friends, family, shipmates, or officers in situations which were not of my creating.  I was able to win them but they do take a toll out of your life.  

I believe that these types of situations cannot be compared to a simple job application for the FBI when it does not even allow due process for its potential employees.  Save your energy for the big battles in life, do not waste them on a Federal Application involving polygraphs if you can avoid it.  There are plenty of Federal openings which do not use the polygraph.

Regards.

collider

Hey Bud, I admire your self confidence and tenacity. Few youngsters of today has it. Unfortunately, it seems that our government and corporations want yes people. Hence the outsourcing. Greed comes in to play here too.

If you are unfortunate enough to become a false positive statistic (as you say "we all lose"), I hope you retain that tenacity and fight them and fight hard. Show them that they are not the only ones who can play hardball.

Good Luck

Quote:


thanks for your help Fair Chance, and your guidance George...

unfortunately, at many points in your life, you will be fighting against a house with the chips/cards/deck heavily stacked against you. whether or not you subscribe to the worldview "nothing ventured, nothing gained," it is a truism. 

my level of confidence has risen dramatically over the past few days. i know i have nothing to hide. will i use CMs? probably. will i pass? almost certainly. and in the chance that i don't? i'll be distraught, but will accept the fact that for now - such a career is simply not available, and it's the bureau's loss, not mine. it's a matter of time before the polygraph is kiboshed - until then, we have to work to change the system, but also work within the system.

before i vanish off into the sunset, i have a couple of detailed questions i'd like to ask someone who has taken the FBI polygraph - nothing major, but just logistical details that i'd rather not ask/have answered out in the open. if you're willing to help, please private message me.

thanks for all the info, guidance, and feedback. will soon be time to roll.

Dear collider,

The dodpi-lepet.pdf is about as exact as it gets for FBI procedure and protocol.  It was quite amazing to see this after my polygraphs for it was exactly as stated.  I do not like the "nothing ventured nothing gained mentality."  This is your reputation and once made record by the FBI, it is close to impossible to clean up easily. 

I do not mind a fair bet if the house is playing clean but the cards are heavily stacked against you.  I hope you come back to this website with news of success but it is almost painful to keep reading about all the false positives coming out of this process.

Regards.

collider,

The FBI was my dream job, too, and like you, I had nothing to hide. But the FBI is not the organization I dreamed it to be. While I know first hand that there are many fine people employed by the FBI, the leadership is corrupt and incompetent beyond any hope of reform. The FBI is not an organization I would today want to be associated with in any way, shape, or form.

With regard to your first question, again, see the DoDPI LEPET examiner's guide. Regarding your second question, there is little one can do to prevent reactions to relevant questions. The much better countermeasure approach is to augment reactions to the "control" questions.

George - while I sympathize with your story, and am fully on-board with the mission to remove the polygraph from federal employment screening entirely, the option "refuse to take it" is just untenable for many of us, including myself. I have nothing to hide - this is my dream job. No one ever got anywhere without taking a risk or two. If it goes well, I'm in. If not, I'm out. There are other agencies that don't require polys (military intel, DSS, others). And though an FBI polygraph failure remains on file forever, I don't think that's an adequate deterrent. I like to think if other agencies are interested enough, they'll either readminister their own polygraphs at a later time. But who knows (I'd be interested in hearing whether applicants elsehere - CIA, NSA et al - had any experiences post-FBI polygraph failure).

As someone who understands the test, countermeasures, etc., I'm simply not concerned with a false positive. 

What I am concerned with are the questions I posed, and if anyone has specific answers - why not share them with me and others who could benefit from this information?

1) The phrasing used in the FBI poly - how many questions, and what wording - and 2) whether it's best to practice for the control questions or the relevants. 

A side question: has anyone taken a practice polygraph? Is this even feasible?

Where there's a will, there's a way. I will simply not allow a junk science bunk test to derail my career goal. I know - it has for so many others - but remember: nothing ventured, nothing gained.

collider,

The FBI's pre-employment polygraph examination is very similar to that which you will find described in DoDPI's Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test examiner's guide:

http://antipolygraph.org/documents/dodpi-lepet.pdf

I do not mean to be flippant, but the best advice I could give you regarding the polygraph is to cancel it now and withdraw your application. The FBI has a pre-employment polygraph failure rate of about 50%. Yet the procedure has absolutely no scientific basis, and many truthful applicants are wrongly branded as liars. By proceding with the polygraph, you are playing Russian roulette with your future--but with three bullets in the cylinder instead of just one.

The consequences of wrongly failing the FBI polygraph are long-lasting and severe. In my opinion, the risk greatly outweighs the potential reward. See my article, "Just Say 'No' to FBI Polgyraphs" for more in this regard:

http://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-032.shtml