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Topic Summary - Displaying 25 post(s).
Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jan 19th, 2006 at 6:55am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Poly,

I agree, real debate is only improved by opposing views, that are well thought out, based on fact, and not subject to emotion. I guess too many big guns on this board for our friend NoNombre. But he should expect to get hammered considering his stance and this boards announced reason for existing. But he is welcome to expound his views. I will give him a pat on the back for at least having the backbone to come on and express the opposition view point. Unlike alot of the polygraphers who sit in the shadows and read this board, and have no guts for open debate. I can respect opposition view points.

Regards ...
Posted by: polyfool
Posted on: Jan 19th, 2006 at 5:03am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Thanks, Eos. I guess we won't hear from Nonombre for awhile. He'll probably just lurk around the site, waiting for another chance to lash out at those interested in engaging in fair debate.
Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jan 18th, 2006 at 7:04am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Poly,

Great article .... 


Regards
Posted by: polyfool
Posted on: Jan 17th, 2006 at 5:13am
  Mark & Quote
polyfool wrote on Jan 17th, 2006 at 5:08am:
NONOMBRE,
 
ADDITIONAL READING MATERIAL: Please note the last line in the story. Seems I'm not the only one who feels this way about DNA.
 
A True Confession?

Feb. 29, 2004
Abdallah Higazy, a 30-year-old student from Cairo, was arrested as a material witness for the 9/11 investigation.  (CBS)

Quote

"Given the choice between two evils, you will absolutely choose the lesser. It was either I go to prison, or I go to prison and something happens to my family. So I chose I go to prison."
Abdallah Higazy
     
(CBS) In criminal court, a signed confession from the accused is practically a guarantee of a guilty verdict. But in the age of DNA, we have a more reliable test of guilt.

As a result, scores of innocent people have been released from prison, including people who had actually admitted to the crime -- shaking a widely held belief that only the guilty confess.

How could someone possibly admit to a crime he did not commit? He could if he was subjected to today's highly developed interrogation techniques -- so effective that even the innocent can succumb.

If you're convinced you'd never crack, take a look at the case of Abdallah Higazy, a 30-year-old student from Cairo who came to the United States in late summer of 2001. Correspondent Morley Safer reports. On the morning of Sept. 11, Higazy was asleep in a room that had been assigned to him at the Millennium Hilton in downtown Manhattan, right across the street from the World Trade Center.

“I'm in my bed and all of a sudden I heard a sonic boom and the hotel shaking,” says Higazy, who had a scholarship to study computer engineering at Brooklyn's Polytechnic University. “The first thing that crossed my head was, ‘Oh, God, please don't make it a terrorist attack.’ That was the first thing that crossed my mind.”

The Hilton was evacuated and he made his way out of Manhattan via the Brooklyn Bridge, along with thousands of New Yorkers trying to escape the carnage. Months later, when he was finally told he could come to the hotel to retrieve his belongings, he was asked to verify a list of contents found in his room.

“And the second subject on the list just caught my eye: radio scanner. I said, ‘Excuse me, sir. This isn't mine,’” recalls Higazy. “Three gentlemen in suits walk up to me and said, ‘Excuse me, sir. My name is Agent so-and-so from the FBI. Would you mind answering a few questions?’"

The FBI agents asked Higazy about an aviation transceiver that they said was found locked in the safe of his room on top of a copy of the Koran. It was a radio that could have been used to communicate with the terrorists on the doomed aircraft.

“Just hearing that scared the living daylights out of me,” says Higazy. “It could have been used … All I could say was, ‘The device is not mine. I never saw it before. I don’t know anything about it.’ They told me, ‘We’re sorry, but we’re putting you under arrest.’”

Higazy was arrested as a material witness for the 9/11 investigation. He was read his rights and taken to the New York headquarters of the FBI, where he was questioned. He offered to take a lie detector test. So after 10 days in solitary confinement, an FBI agent arrived and hooked him up to the polygraph.

“All I said was, ‘I'm just gonna say the truth. And this device is gonna show him that I am saying the truth.’ Unfortunately, the agent threatened me,” says Higazy. “He said it like this: ‘If you do not cooperate, the FBI will make your brother upstate live in scrutiny. And we'll make sure Egyptian security gives your family hell.’ That's exactly how he said it.” The FBI would not discuss the case. An internal investigation into Higazy's allegations concluded there was no evidence the agent had acted improperly.

As the polygraph continued, Higazy says, he began to panic: “I just couldn't breathe. I could hear my heart beat in my head. I started saying, ‘OK, the options are if I say I don't know anything about this device, I'm screwed and so is my family. If I say I know something about the device, it'll be I lied, I'm screwed, but at least my family will be safe.’ And I said, ‘OK, the device is mine.’"

The FBI had its confession, and Higazy spent three more weeks in solitary confinement. He was preparing for a court appearance with a court-appointed lawyer when he was led to an office where, to his amazement, he was told: "You could leave now."

“I said, ‘I'm sorry?’ He said, ‘You could leave now. You were the guy with the radio?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘The real owner came and asked for the radio,’” recalls Higazy.

It turned out the radio did not belong to Higazy. It belonged to a pilot who was also staying at the hotel on Sept 11. When the pilot went to retrieve his belongings, the FBI realized they had the wrong man. A hotel security guard later admitted he lied about finding the radio in the safe in Higazy's room.

Higazy is now suing the hotel, members of its staff, and the FBI agent he says threatened him.

But how could he have confessed to something that he didn’t do? “Given the choice between two evils, you will absolutely choose the lesser,” says Higazy. “It was either I go to prison, or I go to prison and something happens to my family. So I chose I go to prison.”

“The No. 1 reason people give false confessions is because they've been threatened in some way,” says Joe Buckley, president of John E. Reid and Associates, a company that teaches interviewing and interrogation techniques to police officers and federal agents.

Buckley, who is familiar with the Higazy case, says that if the FBI agent threatened Higazy, then it was illegal: “The courts have said you cannot threaten someone's family. You cannot threaten to put their spouse in jail if you don't just tell us the truth kind of thing. Those are things the courts have said are improper.”

Steven Drizin, a law professor at Northwestern University, is one of the country's leading experts on false confessions. He says even some legal interrogation techniques can elicit false confessions from innocent suspects.

“You have to understand today's psychological interrogation techniques. And the kinds of pressure that can be brought on a suspect that is legal in many instances, so that it makes it rational, even for an innocent person, to confess to a crime he didn't commit … whether it’s true or not,” says Drizin. That's what Jorge Hernandez says happened in his case. In July of 2002, Hernandez became a suspect in a particularly brutal assault and rape of a 94-year-old woman in Palo Alto, Calif.

Hernandez was questioned because he lived near the victim and because a ring that had once belonged to his brother was found at the scene of the crime. His brother had an alibi, so police focused on Hernandez.

When police asked him what he was doing the night of the rape, he said he couldn't remember: “They were saying May 10. I was, like, ‘May 10, OK, that was months ago. I don't remember what I did on a specific day.’ So I kept saying, ‘I don't know. I don't know,’" recalls Hernandez.

Then, Hernandez says, police told him they found his fingerprints and other physical evidence that linked to him to the crime. He also claims that they suggested they had surveillance tape of him at the crime scene.

In a police tape, faced with all this "evidence," Hernandez says he began to question his own innocence during the interrogation: "I don't remember doing this, so it kind of seems, like, if you guys say you have my fingerprints and stuff like that. But if I did it, I really want to apologize to her."

“At that time, I was just, like, I didn’t know what to think,” says Hernandez, who admits he was doubting his own memory.

The police suggested to Hernandez that he might have had too much to drink that night – and that he might have blocked the assault from his memory. After hours of interrogations, Hernandez even comes to say that he might remember the apartment's sliding door: “I'm a curious guy, so I probably saw the sliding door opened or something and it attracted my attention.”

With Hernandez volunteering such information, police seemed convinced they had their man. But Hernandez says the police gave him two choices: confess now and they'll try to help him out, or don't confess and face a jury trial with all the evidence piled up against him.

Towards the end of the questioning, police get a semi-confession from Hernandez: “I'm going to be a man and I want to say that I was drunk, maybe. I was drunk, and I was under the influence of alcohol, and I just don't remember doing that. I probably did it and I just don't remember the next day doing it.”

In fact, as Hernandez later found out, the police lied. They did not have his fingerprints, nor did they have his DNA or the surveillance tapes they claimed implicated him in the crime. He was held in jail for three weeks until DNA testing eliminated him as the rapist. The charges were dropped and he was released.

The Palo Alto police department and the district attorney's office wouldn't comment on the ongoing investigation, except to say that no one -- including Hernandez -- had been eliminated as a suspect.

Attorney Randolph Daar is representing Hernandez in a lawsuit against the City of Palo Alto and members of its police department for conducting what he calls a coercive and unlawful interrogation.

“By telling Jorge, in essence, ‘We already know what happened. We already know you did it, so you only have two choices. Choice one is you go to trial, and we'll bury you with evidence. Or choice two is you tell us the truth and we're gonna get you some help,’” says Daar.

“That is clearly illegal. That is coercion. That's what produced a false confession here. I know most people out there say, ‘Gee, I wouldn't confess.’ It worked with him because he believes the cops, and he believes police don't lie. So it's only the face of that naiveté and sincere belief that they could begin to get him to question himself.”

But Buckley says police are allowed to lie about evidence to get at the truth: “According to the court, it's perfectly legal.”

Even if it may produce a false confession?

“Most innocent people, when you tell them, they say, ‘Hey, look pal. I don't care what you got. I wasn't there. I didn't do it. You ain't got no fingerprints on me. I wasn't even in the building. I had nothing to do with it,’” says Buckley. “And most innocent people throw that back in your face.”

In this case, Daar says, it was the combination of lies and what he says were unlawful offers to help Hernandez if he confessed that ultimately elicited the false confession.

“Half of it's [the interrogation is] recorded and half of it's not recorded. We only know for certain, besides Jorge's testimony about the lies and the coercion, because they are then repeated during the recorded part of the interrogation,” says Daar. Professor Drizin wants to see mandatory videotaping of all interrogations. But critics argue that it could interfere with an investigation, and that suspects might be less willing to confess with a camera in the room.

“I think it's the most important single reform in the criminal justice system,” says Drizen. “It’s [Resistance] starting to soften a little bit, because of all the false confessions that are surfacing. But there's terrific resistance.”

“Here we have a videotaped interrogation and still come up with a kind of false confession,” says Safer to Daar.

“But Jorge, at least if he had to face a jury some day on this terrible charge, would at least have a pictorial record of what happened. They're being coercive. They're lying," says Daar.

“I believe ordinary citizens, when looking at those kind of tactics in that context, are gonna reject the confession. They are not nearly as accurate as we are to believe. And thank God, the DNA's come along and at least opened our eyes and exploded these myths.”


© MMIV, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved.


INSIDE 60 Minutes

Posted by: polyfool
Posted on: Jan 17th, 2006 at 4:59am
  Mark & Quote
Nonombre,

SOME RESEARCH FOR YOUR PERUSAL.

The truth is polygraphs lie

Steve Chapman, Washington Times

In May 1978, four men were arrested by Chicago police for murdering a suburban man and raping and murdering his fiancee. All the suspects claimed they were innocent, but there was no real doubt about their guilt: Three of them, after all, had failed a polygraph exam.

Eventually, the Ford Heights Four, as they became known, were convicted for these brutal slayings, and two of the defendants were sentenced to death. But in 1996, DNA evidence exonerated all four. They had spent 18 years behind bars, partly because the lie detector lied.

A report issued last week by the National Academy of Sciences recommended that the federal government stop using polygraphs to screen for security risks. Why? Because, in the words of the study, these devices are “intrinsically susceptible to producing erroneous results.” That’s academese for “I wouldn’t trust one as far as I could throw it.”

The Energy Department adopted polygraph screening of employees in response to the case of Wen Ho Lee, a scientist accused of spying for China but convicted of only a minor security violation. DOE now tests about 2,000 people a year. But George Mason University systems engineering professor Kathryn Laskey, a member of the NAS committee, noted, “No spy has ever been caught using the polygraph.”

There are particular dangers in subjecting lots of people to polygraphs in the effort to find a few wrongdoers, because false positives will greatly outnumber “true” positives. Some employees who have done nothing wrong will nonetheless have physiological reactions that look suspicious. Some accomplished liars will be able to fool the machine.

To nab 8 out of every 10 real spies, the NAS report found, the device would probably have to erroneously implicate nearly 1,600 people. If it were set to minimize false positives, 80 percent of the real spies would slip past. But even then, 20 innocent people would be flagged for every guilty one.

The same fallibility that renders these machines unusable for employee monitoring makes them dangerous for criminal investigations as well. Police and prosecutors regard polygraph results as the closest thing to a dead-bang certainty. But that faith lacks any foundation. “Almost a century of research in scientific psychology and physiology provides little basis for the expectation that a polygraph test could have extremely high accuracy,” concluded the panel.

And there is no reason to think better technology will help. People simply don’t respond in a clear and predictable way to questions about what they may have done wrong. The “inherent ambiguity of the physiological measures used in the polygraph suggest that further investments in improving polygraph technique and interpretation will bring only modest improvements in accuracy,” said the report. Polygraphs are a crude instrument that can’t be refined.

The consequences of a misleading polygraph exam are bad enough in the employment arena, where someone can lose a job or not be hired. But they’re much worse for criminal suspects, who can be locked away or even put to death because their pulse rate rose too much in a stressful situation.

A polygraph result generally can’t be used as evidence in court. But some states allow the information if both the prosecution and the defense concur. So prosecutors may offer suspects the opportunity to clear themselves. Innocent suspects sometimes feel they have nothing to lose and much to gain from going along — only to fail the test.

A couple of weeks ago, one Jimmy Williams was officially cleared by an Ohio court after spending 10 years in prison for the alleged rape of a 12-year-old girl. In fact, the rape never happened, but the Akron man nonetheless managed to fail a polygraph exam. Because his lawyer had agreed in advance to admit the results, the jury was told the lie detector had implicated him.

Other defendants have been victimized not only by the polygraph itself but by its aura of infallibility. Gary Gauger was sentenced to death for the murder of his parents on their McHenry County, Ill., farm but was eventually exonerated. He took a polygraph during his interrogation, and the results were inconclusive. But the police told him he had failed it.

He was so rattled by the news that the cops were able to get him to speculate aloud how he might have killed his parents. Those statements were then used to convict him of a crime he never committed.

Our medieval forebears had their own lie detector test: Suspected witches were dunked in water, on the theory that the guilty would float and the innocent would sink. Polygraphs aren’t quite as preposterous, but they’re bad enough.




Posted by: nolehce
Posted on: Jan 16th, 2006 at 10:32am
  Mark & Quote
Nonombre,
What a clown you are. I stand by everything I said:

Faced with impending execution, and with my life depending on someone else's interpretation of some squiggly lines, I'd probably "fail" a "lie detector test" as well.

Mmmm, yup.
 
"The[y] state that Coleman 'failed,' the 'test' as if that somehow conclusively proves his guilt."  Well, Allegedliar, I guess in this case, it looks like polygraph did just that.
 
Nonombre, the polygraph no more proves this man a murderer than spraying water from a garden hose proves it's raining. Follow?

I believe it is you who are filled with glee, and not a little schadenfreude too.

The point of my original post was to point out the lack of skepticism on the part of the press when invoking this man's polygraph test as proof of his guilt. Ever heard of Wen Ho Lee?

Now, as far as trashing the "good name" of any polygrapher, none of them have any good name in my book. You are all already trash in my opinion.

Provided the information, I will out any polygrapher's sorry ass any day of the week. Try me.

You all had so much to say.  You all spoke with such authority...

Indeed, I will always have much more to say on this topic, as long as bozos like Nonombre -- more like Nobrain -- populate this board. Yes, I speak with moral authority.

Nonombre, my friend, you speak out your ass.
Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jan 16th, 2006 at 7:42am
  Mark & Quote
nonombre wrote on Jan 16th, 2006 at 12:21am:


 My federal polygraph examiner friends tell me that a number of years ago, there was a federal study conducted that compared the results of Army crime lab analysis with Army CID polygraph results.  The end result (as I am told) was there was not a single case where the polygraph results disagreed with the crime lab results (fingerprints, ballistics, etc).  These polygraph exams were conducted in virtually every case prior to the crime lab results being reported.  Therefore there was no way the polygraph examiners could have know then laboratory outcomes.  If true, this 100% correlation would seem to be a testament to polygraph accuracy.

Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of the study, but I have been told the study was conducted in the 1980s by two guys named Light and Schwartz.

Regards,

Nonombre



Found the study:

http://www.dodpi.army.mil/docs/research/93r0001.htm

Obviously highly referenced by the DODPI.  Key note at the bottom of the overview. 

Although this line of research is important to improving the public's image of FP, it is not a high priority for the Department of Defense Institute's research mission and will not likely be followed up by Institute personnel. However, it is anticipated that some of the field practitioners, upon reading this report, might pursue additional studies

The other comments were,  yes it is impressive on its capibilities, but too expensive and too hard to implement. The report is actually posted on DTIC. And I have downloaded it and read it. 

It is highly suspect as it was written and researched by polygraphers for polygraphers. Valid research in never done by nepotism.  And I would never consider research unless validated by a real research institution. DODPI is not a research institution. Accredited by ACICS, lets see ITT Tech and other various trade schools have this accreditation.  Real universities wouldn't even accept those credentials.  Its an interesting read, but again suspect, as it tries to improve the image of forensic polygraphy with alot of numbers and statistics. But the thing to note, the percentages are always less than 90 %. No accuracy what so ever.

Added download link

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA300302&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pd...

Thats my review .... 

Regards 

Posted by: polyfool
Posted on: Jan 16th, 2006 at 4:44am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
nonombre wrote on Jan 16th, 2006 at 4:16am:


Polyfool,

Please provide me a detailed list of murder convicts, cleared by DNA, that had failed prior police administered polygraph examinations.  Once I have a verifyable list, I might give your ASSertion credence that DNA has proven ANY properly administered, quality controlled, polygraph, wrong.  Until then, have a good day.

Nonombre



Nonombre,

I'll work on a verifiable list of rape and/or murder convictions as I was referring to in my post, but why should I bother--you've already given yourself and the polygraph community your usual out--there must have been something wrong with the way the test was administered! Likely story. What a total cop-out. 

Posted by: nonombre
Posted on: Jan 16th, 2006 at 4:16am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
polyfool wrote on Jan 16th, 2006 at 4:00am:
Nonombre,

Since the Old Dominion is your home state Nonombre, perhaps you are familiar with a man named Earl Washington who came within nine days of his execution for rape and murder before DNA testing cleared him.  Nonombre, I betcha he failed a polygraph, don't you? ...Gee, Nonombre--I wonder how many of those guys failed polygraphs? Probably every last one. It must really suck for you guys--polygraph examiners masquerading as scientists only to have DNA PROVE you wrong. Boo-hoo. Thank God for real science.     Smiley


Polyfool,

Please provide me a detailed list of murder convicts, cleared by DNA, that had failed prior police administered polygraph examinations.  Once I have a verifyable list, I might give your ASSertion credence that DNA has proven ANY properly administered, quality controlled, polygraph, wrong.  Until then, have a good day.

Nonombre

Posted by: polyfool
Posted on: Jan 16th, 2006 at 4:00am
  Mark & Quote
Nonombre,

It really takes a lot of guts to come out and voice opinions AFTER the results are already in--you're one brave guy. I respectfully disagree with your ASSertion that the polygraph was right in this case. It was the jury and prosecution who got it right in this case and the DNA comparison -- a proven scientific testing procedure--that proves it. 

If you'll notice-- instead of picking out  quotes to back up your weak arguement--the posters on this thread kept open minds before the results were in. I even stated that I'd always believed Coleman to be guilty, but you failed to mention that.  I stand by my original statement of no wonder Coleman failed the poly on the morning of his execution. Whether innocent or guilty of the crime at hand, that's an unbelieveable amount of pressure to put on anyone. Don't misunderstand me, I have no sympathy for rapists and murderers nor am I making any excuses for Coleman. Undergoing a poly for a job is very nerve-racking, I can't imagine what it must be like if one's life depended  on it. Here's a hypothetical for you nonombre: Say you were wrongly convicted and sentenced to death for a crime you didn't commit. Would you be willing to trust your life in the hands of an unscientific so-called testing procedure such as the polygraph?   

I am glad that we know for sure that Virginia (Nonombre's home state) did not execute an innocent man. That would have been a heavy burden for many to live with, including those such as myself who support the death penalty. What is most unfortunate is that a guilty man professed his innocence until his death and when an innocent man does it, he may not be heard. Since the Old Dominion is your home state Nonombre, perhaps you are familiar with a man named Earl Washington who came within nine days of his execution for rape and murder before DNA testing cleared him.  Nonombre, I betcha he failed a polygraph, don't you? Before leaving office, Virginia Governor Mark Warner ordered DNA testing in many rape and/or murder convictions and several men have already been cleared because of the results. Gee, Nonombre--I wonder how many of those guys failed polygraphs? Probably every last one. It must really suck for you guys--polygraph examiners masquerading as scientists only to have DNA PROVE you wrong. Boo-hoo. Thank God for real science.     Smiley
Posted by: nonombre
Posted on: Jan 16th, 2006 at 12:21am
  Mark & Quote
EosJupiter wrote on Jan 15th, 2006 at 11:25pm:
NoNombre,

Botton Line is the DNA proved in this case the polygrapher got it right. Is it a panacea of rightiousness for the polygraph? not in a long shot. And again if you read my posts, DNA proved him guilty. THe ramifications of him not (as stated before), is nothing but noice. But the best part of this forum is this debate. And at a minimum, this forum makes you polygraphers think twice before rendering a half-baked opinion. No I am not liberal, I do believe in let the punishment fit the crime, as long as it is proven.  Never let it be said I never admit to being wrong.  Now let a polygrapher openly come back and admit to a wrongful opinion.
That will never happen.

Regards


EosJupiter,

Your post brings up an interesting point.  My federal polygraph examiner friends tell me that a number of years ago, there was a federal study conducted that compared the results of Army crime lab analysis with Army CID polygraph results.  The end result (as I am told) was there was not a single case where the polygraph results disagreed with the crime lab results (fingerprints, ballistics, etc).  These polygraph exams were conducted in virtually every case prior to the crime lab results being reported.  Therefore there was no way the polygraph examiners could have know then laboratory outcomes.  If true, this 100% correlation would seem to be a testament to polygraph accuracy.

Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of the study, but I have been told the study was conducted in the 1980s by two guys named Light and Schwartz.

Regards,

Nonombre

Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jan 15th, 2006 at 11:25pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
NoNombre,

Botton Line is the DNA proved in this case the polygrapher got it right. Is it a panacea of rightiousness for the polygraph? not in a long shot. And again if you read my posts, DNA proved him guilty. THe ramifications of him not (as stated before), is nothing but noice. But the best part of this forum is this debate. And at a minimum, this forum makes you polygraphers think twice before rendering a half-baked opinion. No I am not liberal, I do believe in let the punishment fit the crime, as long as it is proven.  Never let it be said I never admit to being wrong.  Now let a polygrapher openly come back and admit to a wrongful opinion.
That will never happen.

Regards
Posted by: nonombre
Posted on: Jan 15th, 2006 at 11:05pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
EosJupiter wrote on Jan 15th, 2006 at 9:26pm:
Sergeant,

Next time stake your claim at the onset of the debate. You would definately have more validity.

Regards .....


EosJupiter,

I will certainly stipulate that you very much "staked your claim" at the onset of this debate.  Now it is time for you to admit (no matter where I personally came into the picture) that you and your anti-poly buds were busily and joyfully planning the lynching of polygraph over this case before the sad day arrived that proved that polygraph was actually quite right all along.  You must have really hated when that happened...Smiley

Now in your defense, I very much respect your position that a cold blooded murderer came to his much earned end.  At least you are not a bleeding heart liberal.

I really dislike those guys.

Nonombre

Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jan 15th, 2006 at 9:26pm
  Mark & Quote
Sergeant,

I agree with you, NoNombre should have jumped into the race at the beginning. But its easy to make the call after the real science is done, and the results are in.

NoNombre, 

Its not your polygraph that won the day here, Its the real science of DNA,  conclusive, accurate, and with known finite results. Definately something your polygraph can't even come close to matching. Now If you read my posts, I predicated all my posts with, Now pay attention, "If he is exonerated", The whole string is an exercise in theory, and logic. If he is exonerated, then all types of things happen, if not then a murderer was executed. And privately in email we knew you would show up and gloat. I might suspect that the examiner that gave that deathhouse poly was you. And if it wasn't you know who it was. His name didn't get posted and it was also no where do be found in this medium. That examiner dodged a real bullet here, but lets not hide the fact again, it was the real science that did the job. But we will have another shot at the polygraph and the polygraphers that run the infernal machine. You can only hide in the shadows for so long before one of your brothern screws over the wrong examinee. Next time stake your claim at the onset of the debate. You would definately have more validity.

Regards .....
Posted by: nonombre
Posted on: Jan 15th, 2006 at 9:22pm
  Mark & Quote
Sergeant1107 wrote on Jan 15th, 2006 at 8:48pm:
Nonombre,

I can’t help but view your post with skepticism.  After waiting for the DNA test results you then spoke out regarding the accuracy of the polygraph administered prior to the execution.  What lukewarm confidence you must have in the polygraph...

If you could have spoken out with confidence before the DNA results were available, based on nothing more than the polygraph test administered prior to the execution, I think that would have shown true confidence in the accuracy of the polygraph.  But I suspect that you knew there was some chance, however large or small you believed it to be, that the polygraph administered prior to the execution was inaccurate, and the wrong person was in fact executed.

Your post seems intended to denigrate those who failed to acknowledge, after the DNA test results were known, that the correct person was in fact executed.  How is your post, which also waited until the DNA test results were known, any better?


Sergeant,

Nice to hear from you again (I mean that, no sarcasm intended).  To answer your question, I did not purposely wait for the DNA results to be posted before responding.  In fact, if you look at the date I did respond, it was several days after the DNA results were made available.  I was going to not respond at all, but I felt I had to in this case.

To answer another question:   Yes, of course there was a chance the polygraph results would be wrong.  Just like there is always a chance that tool mark evidence, ballistics, and hand writing analysis could be wrong.  That is why we consider the totality of any case before any of us should make decisions of guilt or innocence.

My only point is that the posters to this string were virtually jumping out of their skins in gleeful anticipation that the DNA results would counter the polygraph, and when the opposite turned out to be the case, vitually each one was suddenly and strangely silent.

Regards,

Nonombre
Posted by: Sergeant1107
Posted on: Jan 15th, 2006 at 8:48pm
  Mark & Quote
Nonombre,

I can’t help but view your post with skepticism.  After waiting for the DNA test results you then spoke out regarding the accuracy of the polygraph administered prior to the execution.  What lukewarm confidence you must have in the polygraph...

If you could have spoken out with confidence before the DNA results were available, based on nothing more than the polygraph test administered prior to the execution, I think that would have shown true confidence in the accuracy of the polygraph.  But I suspect that you knew there was some chance, however large or small you believed it to be, that the polygraph administered prior to the execution was inaccurate, and the wrong person was in fact executed.

Your post seems intended to denigrate those who failed to acknowledge, after the DNA test results were known, that the correct person was in fact executed.  How is your post, which also waited until the DNA test results were known, any better?
Posted by: nonombre
Posted on: Jan 15th, 2006 at 7:25pm
  Mark & Quote
nolehce wrote on Jan 13th, 2006 at 10:13pm:
Actually, I suspect the polygraphers will claim that the DNA vindicates their failure of this defendant on his examination.

The true loss is that they will use the cover of an, indeed, legitimate execution to further the myth of lie detection.

I don't shrug my shoulders at the thought that polygraphers will be emboldened by this development.


Alleged liar,

I gave this particular string alot of thought before I responded to all of you.  No, I not feeling "emboldened" by the fact that Virginia (my home state) correctly executed a murderer.  Nor am I dancing in glee that the state made that decision in part by correctly considering the results of a polygraph examination that proved to be "dead on" accurate in this case (no pun intended).

I am posting now simply to remind each of you who waited with such joyous anticipation to hang a wrongful death charge on a Virginia police examiner, that not a single one of you who posted to this string, have come back to this board and admitted you may have been a little to quick to execute the polygraph examiner instead of the actual murderer.

You all had so much to say.  You all spoke with such authority...   

Alledgedliar:
"Faced with impending execution, and with my life depending on someone else's interpretation of some squiggly lines, I'd probably "fail" a "lie detector test" as well. 

Then state that Coleman "failed," the "test" as if that somehow conclusively proves his guilt."

Well, Allegedliar, I guess in this case, it looks like polygraph did just that. 

George Maschke
"...it is hardly surprising that anyone whose life or imminent death hinged upon his being believed or disbelieved when answering relevant questions about a crime for which he has been convicted might react more strongly to them than to such commonly used probable-lie "control" questions as, "Before (date of crime), did you ever intentionally hurt someone?"

George, once again this case proves you do not understand polygraph concepts and application as well as you claim.  To bad for the folks downloading your materials.   

Polyfool, 
"...It's no wonder Coleman failed his polygraph on the morning of his execution as he had a lot riding on its outcome--his life literally depended on it." 

No, Polyfool.  He failed because he raped and murdered a 19 year old girl…Next question? 

EosJupiter
"What is also interesting to note, is that if he was executed wrongly by the state of Virginia, then the polygraph examiner is also guilty of duplicity & contributing to the death of an innocent person, because he falsely read the charts that lead to his death. At a minimum under the law he is an accessory to the wrongful death. And guess what that’s a felony. Oh this is going to be so much fun watching this work its way out. So to the polygraphers that read this: If he is found innocent then , besides just destroying peoples reputation, you now help people get killed." 

EosJupiter, the obvious joy you took in writing the above posting was one of the main reasons I write you now.  Since the examiner clearly had “duplicity & contributing to the death” of an GUILTY person, will you now stipulate that the polygraph examiner in this case “correctly” read the charts?  You also said "Oh this is going to be so much fun," in reference to how the polygraph community would respond if this murderer were indeed found innocent.  I suspect this situation has turned out to be somewhat less "fun" than you had inticipated.   

Eos Jupiter
"...what I am saying is that the way the law works, and it apples to doctors with malpractice too, is that if the process or procedure contributes to the death of a person, there are both civil and criminal rules involved, and remedies to address those issues. And just by the nature of that type of polygraph interrogation, (and I can't ever be sure), the polygrapher could not have been unbiased as they claim they are. But again we weren't there, but my gut instinct tells me that it wasn't even close to being impartial. That guy was going to fry no matter the outcome. The poly was just an insurance policy for the State of Virginia to say, see he failed ... now lets kill him."

EosJupiter, I'm afraid that once again it seems all your assumptions were wrong.  I believe the examiner conducted a fair and impartial polygraph exmaination here.  As any professional examiner would have.  And don’t forget, his results were accurate and correct. 

Polyfool

"We'll see how the Coleman case plays out. I lot of eyes will be watching this case closely--you can bet on it. If in fact, he is cleared, it seems like it would be a good time to talk about the invalidity and unreliability of the polygraph since his life literally depended on it." 

Hey Polyfool, now that the results of this examination were clearly accurate, lets all talk about the validity and accuracy of polygraph in this case. 

Eos Jupiter
"In civil proceedings, if he is exonerated, that family has a substancial payday coming. And that familys case will start with the State of Virginia, and follow the people trail, of which that polygrapher better have good insurance."

And if by any chance you knew who the examiner was in this case, and posted his name to this board (which you all like to do), trashing his good name in the process, then how much insurance would you have to have now?  Could you afford it?

EosJupiter 
"...because a polygraph was used to help put (if he is exonerated), an innocent man into the electric chair. It even adds more fuel to the antipolygraph momement....this could be a real windfall for the antipolygraph cause.

And instead it has reinforced the importance of polygraph testing in criminal investigations.  In the end I view the results of the polygraph examination in this case as a "real windfall" in the use of a forensic technique that has proved its utility over and over.

My word.

Nonombre
 


Posted by: nolehce
Posted on: Jan 13th, 2006 at 10:13pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Actually, I suspect the polygraphers will claim that the DNA vindicates their failure of this defendant on his examination.

The true loss is that they will use the cover of an, indeed, legitimate execution to further the myth of lie detection.

I don't shrug my shoulders at the thought that polygraphers will be emboldened by this development.
Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jan 13th, 2006 at 6:55am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Well a whole lot of hubbub and verbage over nothing, I guess, no loss, just one executed murderer.   

Regards
Posted by: polyfool
Posted on: Jan 12th, 2006 at 11:06pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Virginia Governor Mark Warner says DNA retesting in the case of Roger Keith Coleman, who was executed in 1992 for the 1981 rape and murder of his sister-in-law Wanda Fay McCoy in Grundy, confirms his guilt. According to the Ontario lab that conducted the independent testing, there is a one in 19 million chance that a randomly selected person unrelated to Coleman would share his DNA profile. 

Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jan 11th, 2006 at 10:15am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
TwoBlock,

You sound like you would make a mighty fine lawyer. 
The toughest courses in Law School are Civil Procedure, Torts, and Contract Law. those are in your first year courses. After them the rest is challenging but not hard. You should consider it. By your speaking and logic, you could be formidable.   Again thanks for the time.

Regards
Posted by: Twoblock
Posted on: Jan 11th, 2006 at 12:32am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
EosJupitor

Unless DNA vendicates the guy, then this IS all noise.

I think federal courts are much more honest and pay more attention to case law. You have "Tobacco Road" politics to contend with at local and state courts. I know. I just finished a county case, defending my grandson which I won, and I'm going to take them on again with a damage suit. Federal courts seem to give more leeway to pro se actions than state courts. Local judges seem to think the legal profession is a lock in for lawyers and make it as hard for non-lawyers as they can.
Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jan 10th, 2006 at 5:51pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
TwoBlock,

I will have to rely on your experience, since you have dealt with ADA (I am assuming its Americans with Disabilities Act), and dealing with the feds can be tough. This case put before a federal bench, would be most interesting. I need to look at Virginia's appeal rules to get a better idea. I think the state will want to settle this, and make it go away. again this could be nothing more than noise too, if the DNA testing doesn't happen.
Its great to have your input  !!! Smiley   

Regards
Posted by: Twoblock
Posted on: Jan 10th, 2006 at 5:06pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
EosJupitor

Thanks.

One way it could wind up in federal court is if the family lost in state courts and kept appealing, it would land in the Federal District Court. If they lost there the appeal process would take them to the Court of Appeals and then on to U.S. SupCt. by Writ of Certiorari. That's why I say the first action should include Due Process and state a claim. States always try to say "the action didn't state a claim".
Posted by: EosJupiter
Posted on: Jan 10th, 2006 at 8:34am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
TwoBlock,

My lawyer friend said he highly doubts it could ever go to federal court.  Its a state issue only. Subject to all the state politics that I am sure will come with this case.
But this case has the potential to make a lawyers career. 

Hope the info helps .

Regards
 
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