Retcopper is so full of crap and in such denial!  Just another cop looking after the six of all the crooked, degenerate cops of the world.  It is too bad that you give good cops a bad rap.  A while back you said the polygraph is necessary.  Why is that?  So you have something else to lie about to someone in order to extract a "confession".  Cops like you are nothing more than bullies that think because you wear a badge that you are above everyone else.   You would rather use JUNK science such as the polygraph and lies than actually getting off your butt and doing some real police work.  People that are weak and have always been taught to respect and trust the police will break if they are being told that evidence exists against them.  They trust you and you abuse that trust.  On top of that you tell them they failed a polygraph which they also entrusted.  So, what do you do?  You talk to them like you are their friend as if you only want to help them out.  You tell them to trust you and that the system will go easy on them if they just come clean.  So, they feel helpless.  They feel like no one would believe them no matter what.  So, they make up a FALSE confession just to get out of that little room.  Try to say that doesnt happen everyday to hundreds of people all accross this nation that claims innocent until proven guilty.  That is a joke!  If you say it doesnt you are either having the worst case of denial or you are simply a bofaced LIAR!  I am tired of cops that will lie straight to your face to reach their agenda.  They need to remove the word integrity from their police cruisers as they have none! I know you are wondering so I will just answer your question.  Yes, this happened to me, but I was strong!  The snake that called himself a detective could not break me.  We have clearly showed my innocence and all is well! I am not a cop hater.  I know alot of really great officers that present themselves with great honor.  But, to me you represent yourself as nothing more than a lazy, sorry excuse for a police officer!

polyfool wrote on Sep 26^th, 2005 at 4:11pm:


Waitaminnit....I was told that this would only prevent future FBI employment, that they do NOT share this result with other agencies!!

Ya know what's funny? Poly people don't give a crap ab out your truth..they wanna know your nervousness...

FBI-Reject wrote on Nov 13^th, 2006 at 5:43am:


Hello reject, sorry for the delay.

I really can't say that I was discriminated against by the organization because I didn't tell them that I was religious when I took the test.  I just told them that drug usage goes against my beliefs.  For all they know, I could have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses or Hasidic Jewish.  I only mentioned my denomination when I appealed.  

Of course, they failed me on the appeal.  What a waste of time and vacation day.

I somehow missed this original posting.  I would be interested in knowing the name of your polygrapher.  I too am Mormon, and was told the exact same line about having high standards as you were.  I was also accused of reacting to the drug question.  The chance is small, but if it was the same examiner doing the same thing to two Mormon applicants, that might be the basis to show systematic bias.

John,

I had to take a 2nd poly and to date havent been told if I passed or failed it...yet before my 2nd poly, they started the BI....not sure why, as that makes no sense....

Thank you, everyone, for your advice.

I would like to get all of the information. However, based on the hostile attitude of the person I spoke with by telephone I am reluctant to go about doing that on my own.

I would like to ask a lawyer for assistance (not to file a lawsuit, but to get help in accessing my file and discovering where I stand).

Can anyone suggest such a lawyer? What area of legal specialty should I look for?

Thanks.

Dungadin:

Some would agree that by definition that a person is a criminal if convicted of a crime. In the legal sense you are not a criminal if you have not been convicted of a crime. If you correctly heard the officer say "you are considered a criminal" because you might have failed a polygraph exam then you should prcoeed to get some answers.  At the very least  I would suggest that you speak to that officers superior, relay everything that transpired and ask why you are " being considered a criminal."

i didnt feel like reading through the new threads. any update on this one?

Johnn wrote on Sep 26^th, 2005 at 7:15am:

Johnn: The form that you remember initialing and giving written responses to the FBI guidelines required your signature to proceed with the test. BY signing that form you gave your permission to be polygraphed. However, what your polygrapher didn't tell you was that you were submitting to a scientifically invalid, unreliable testing procedure that if you failed would blacklist you from future federal law enforcement employment and would be released to any other federal agency to which you apply.

Wait a second, am I missing something here?  I don't remember signing a poly waiver.  All I remember was initialling a few nonsense questions.

polyfool wrote on Sep 25^th, 2005 at 9:38pm:

Polyfool,

You raise an excellent point. Persons who sign polygraph liability waivers agreeing to hold harmless a polygraph operator and the agency that employs him cannot be assumed to have granted informed consent. On the contrary, it is standard practice for polygraph operators to disinform examinees about polygraph procedure and validity.

Dungadin:

Did you really know the rules going in? Did you know that you were submitting to an invalid, unreliable testing procedure when you gave consent? You probably believed in the polygraph like most people. After all, why would local, federal and state governments use it if it didn't work? That's how I looked at it. When I signed my waiver, I thought I had control over the situation by simply telling the truth. I didn't know my fate would be determined by a so-called test as reliable as a coin toss and a wacko, jerk polygraph examiner. That's not exactly informed consent. Had I been informed, I never would have consented to such an arrangement and I'm sure you wouldn't have, either.

OK, I've done some more thinking. It's not a matter of being up to the task, it's simply a matter of being realistic.

First, I don't have a criminal record. The police officer said that a failed poly makes them think of me as a criminal (loosely quoted) but that's not the same as having an official criminal record.

Second, while this situation may be unfair, it is not unjust. I knew the rules going in. I didn't do any research beforehand and paid the price (I didn't have anything to hide so I didn't worry about it). The police followed the law, I don' t doubt it.

Third, regarding mental anguish, yes - it sucked. It still does. However, I voluntarily submitted myself for the test. No one made me do it.

I would love to see the laws changed. If my record really is tarnished (I'm not sure it is), then I would like to clear it. However, I don't see any basis for a legal claim. There is no way that I could win. One needs to be 100% confident before making a legal challenge against a government. I signed waivers. I signed statements indicating that I understood the rules. I could only screw myself further if I sued and I'm not even sure I'm screwed right now!

The question remains, what happens next? I read a report on this site claiming that 75% of rejected applicants at one agency are rejected because of the poly. According to another statement, 50% of truthful applicants fail the poly because they are nervous (that's my category).

That's a heck of a lot of people! What are they doing now? Washing dishes at a greasy spoon along with released felons? Are they living productive lives?

dunagin

It is very plain, to me, that you have suffered character assassination. It is also plain that the PD has commited a crime for maintaining  a record falsely showing you are a criminal which was tatally thier unfounded call. Again it is plain, to me, that you are suffering mental anxiety. Otherwise, I don't think you would be on this site asking questions concerning your possible future employment.

If I was in your shoes, I would have someone pose as a background investigator and contact that PD. If your false criminal record is divulged, then that is the first step in your evidence gathering for your lawsuit. Ask a lawyer (out of that PD's jurisdiction) about this scenario. The reason I say this is because a lot of lawyers do not want to take on hometown PD's. Some hometown lawyers would actually notify the PD of your actions.

You sound like you are NOT up to the challenge, however. It's your call.

Thanks for the responses. It's good to know that there are people out there who understand.

Twoblock: I fear that you are right about my record being available to anyone. However, I don't think I'm in a position to sue because I have experienced no damages (other than being denied the police job) and I don't think that the police have broken any laws.

Since I have not submitted myself for any background investigation since that time, I can't really say that I have suffered any consequences. My worry is that I will suffer consequences if/when I apply for a job in the public sector in the future and am wondering what other people have experienced.

Those of you who have failed polys - have you been denied employment by other organizations (non-police) as a result? 

Brandon Hall: Thank you as well. I never thought of the distinction between polygraph and background investigation. You are right, they are separate issues. Something to think about.

G.W. Maschke: I learned from my phone call that the law is unclear. I got two different answers from two different people in the same office. I doubt that anyone can get a definitive answer when dealing with government these days. Maybe my best option is to ask a lawyer for advice, but that may open a can of worms. For example, my records may be destroyed after so many years. If I do an official inquiry, they may never be destroyed.

Sorry for the rambling. I have not been able to speak with anyone about this in six years. It's really nice to chat with people who share these concerns.

Eastwood wrote on Sep 24^th, 2005 at 5:19am:

If that's not a rehtorical question, then I give up...  Why do you have to assume there is a lifestyle issue?

Why is that as soon as I hear "mormon" I have to assume there is a lifestyle issue? ???

dungadin

Falsely labeling you a criminal is, in itself, a criminal act. Your police records showing that you are a criminal, is available to any background investigator and they will be happy to supply this info. I don't think many, if any, will hire you based on that record. In today's times anyway.

Here goes my broke record "SUE THE LYING BASTARDS" if you want to clear your name. I don't give a damn that anyone says, responding to your post, that you don't have a legal claim. Yours is an action that is begging to be filed in a court of law. 

Of coarse, if you are willing to go through life with falsy tarnished integrity, then roll over and play dead and permit me to be the first one to throw a shovel full of dirt on your face.

Don't look for sympathy from retcopper. According to him there are no bad cops. If they label you a criminal, then by damn there has to be something to it.

dungadin wrote:
Quote:


You're right.  Continue to tell the truth.  You didn't fail a background, you failed a polygraph examination (big difference).  The results of a background check are verifiable, not so for the other.  Be honest when applying, according to your statement, you have indeed never failed a background investigation.

dungadin,

To answer your questions, I think it would be necessary to ascertain 1) the police department's record retention policy and 2) the regulations governing disclosure of applicant information. Since there are no national standards (these are state and local matters) I don't think anyone here is going to be able to give you a definitive answer.

Hello,
 
I have a question that I hope someone can answer. Before I ask, though, I'll give you a little background.
 
First, I was very happy to find this site and read about what you are doing to combat polygraph abuse. I didn't need to be told that the tests are unscientific and inaccurate - I already knew that from personal experience.
 
Six years ago I tried to become a police officer. Several police agencies considered me to be a top candidate after my oral, written, and physical tests. One gave me a conditional offer of employment for a non-officer position, pending successful completion of a background investigation and a polygraph exam.
I passed the background but did not pass the polygraph. They gave me a second chance. Again I did not pass.
 
Like many of the people who have written testimonies on this site, I was shocked. I did not lie, disclosed all my minor blemishes in the pre-questioning stage, and went in to the test full of confidence because I had nothing to hide. Why would anyone who had something to hide voluntarily apply for such a job and submit to that test?
 
Nonetheless, I was told that my results indicated that I was untruthful about something. They did not tell me what I supposedly lied about. I signed all my rights away before testing and now will probably never know.
 
Several of your testimonials describe how failed testers couldn't sleep and were generally shocked by the results. That happened to me too. I have never had such a severe emotion, good or bad, in my entire life while I drove home. I hope that was the low point for my life. RET suggests that Johnn should find a different line of work because of this apparent weakness. Take that as a compliment, Johnn. Those feelings make you human.

The bottom line is this. I was considered by the police to be a criminal. I have never been arrested. I have never been convicted. I have never committed a crime (sure, there have been small things like occasional marijuana smoking in my youth, but I disclosed all of that before the test). Still, they think I'm a criminal.
 
All I did was apply for a job! If they had just rejected me for a job that would be no problem. In fact, I'm glad I didn't get the job because I moved on to much better things in my career. But to be branded a criminal? Ridiculous. I confirmed this a couple of weeks ago. I called the police agency to ask if my records were still on file because I had heard that they may be destroyed after a few years. The police officer I spoke to was friendly until he asked for my name. I gave it, he punched it into the computer, he realized immediately who I was (even though I already told him), and then suddenly he barked at me like I was a convicted felon. He said, despite assurances I received six years ago, that he would disclose the results of my test to anyone who asked (if they are legally entitled to it) and that for all intents and purposes I am considered a criminal. HE ACTUALLY SAID THOSE WORDS. Remember, I only applied for a job.
 
Here is my question. Am I screwed for life? I have worked as an educator in private business for many years, have great credentials, a graduate degree, and am now considering working at a public university or getting a teaching license. Public universities and K-12 schools always do background investigations. Will they find out about this? Will they consider me unemployable or a criminal? I guess they will find out because every background questionairre asks if an applicant has failed a previous background investigation (and I will continue to tell truth).
 
Will my failed attempt to work for a police agency prevent me from every working at a school, for the government, for an airline (they require FAA background tests), for private businesses that do government contracts?
 
Am I branded as a criminal for life? Do you have any experience with this? I want to apply for a job with a university or school but am really afraid that they will come back and say that I'm a criminal because my name and record is in a government database.

A final comment for RET: obviously, we disagree on the validity of the polygraph. However, I am hoping that you, more than any other person, can shed some light on my question. You probably know best.

I have been a reader/lurker to this forum for quite some time.

I can testify to the fact that polygraphs are a joke, a waste of time and are basically a crutch used by law enforcement in place of good investigative work.

You know that already, otherwise you would have not posted the tripe that I am replying to.

I understand that you, being a cop, have to preach the party line.  That is, you preach the line only because you don't want to admit that many, not all, in your profession are just one step away from being on the other side of the thin blue line.

Polygraphs are crap, period.

Johnn wrote on Sep 19^th, 2005 at 3:31am:


Johnn:

I think you are right about this. My belief in the polygraph was so strong before I took one that if I hadn't experienced it for myself, I never would have believed that it doesn't work, either. I would probably think that the people behind this site had some sort of ulterior motive and the posters were just bitter liars who got caught. I think I had even more faith in it than the average person. A lot of the people I know who learned that my polygraph failure was for real (instead of additional testing of some sort) said , "Well, you know, those things are not admissible in court."  My belief in the poly was still so strong even after my failure that when I showed up for my appeal interview, I felt paranoid and nervous, thinking everyone at the FBI thought I was a liar. I didn't know about TLBTLD at that time and was still very much in the dark.  I think it is difficult for those who haven't gone through such an ordeal to fully understand what it's like and why the experience can be so hard to shake.

Skeptic and Twoblock:

Of course I am talking about obtaining a "true" cnfession. Skeptic writes that  there are some cops who are satisfied to get a confession from an innocent person and I guess that could be true, although I have never seen any indication of it.

Twoblock

Example: A police interrogator separates two suspects for questioning.  Each one is told that the other gave a statement implicating them both. The interrogator is lying and is an example of what I was referring to.