nonombre wrote on Jul 14^th, 2005 at 4:38am:



In the manner that the polygrapher(s) I have dealt with do, I will go ahead and assume that in this quote, the "we" you are referring to is you and the other polygraphers who apparently regularly monitor this sites activity?    

I know of way too many "good cops, tough cops, best back up I ever had cops" that never should have authority in their grasp let alone a gun or a beer bottle.

Side question, why is it that I was cleared for jobs(which I decided not to take) in the military (I was given choices due to high scoring on ASFAB and their background check on me.) such as Security Forces and Intelligence Analyst among others and not cleared for a county corrections job because of a polygraph?.....Where would I be in more sensitive locations involving more important information and/or weapons? MILITARY. Why will the government both local state and federal not adhere to the same standards?

Smoking pot is a victimless crime. It's morally obtuse to compare it to fondling a child. But let's move past that issue for a moment. A polygraph is only a scourge to society if it lends itself to injustice. If a polygraph is a reliable tool to detect deception, then we can discuss what consistutes a reasonable question during an employment interview. However, if the polygraph is not a reliable tool, and people are unjustly labeled deceptive based on the polygraph, then it is a scourge. How could it be anything else?

nonombre wrote on Jul 14^th, 2005 at 4:38am:

Another one of Eddie Gelb's victims.  PHd allows him to brand you a liar and he's got the so called Doctorate to prove it.  Gelb still hasn't answered any of us as to where he obtained his Phd, if in fact he truly has one.

I am troubled greatly that most of the posts in here refers to applicants for CIA, police,etc. I know that there are no perfect people as I am one of them but damn; It is sad that those who will accuse others of wrongdoing should come to terms with who they are first. My life was turned upside-down when Ed Gelb (phd MY @ss) failed me on national television. When Ken Shull months later passed me it restored nothing but stopped an eminant FBI investigation. I volunteered to a poly for one reason and that was to proove I did not sell a kidney to Bob Hickey...I took the poly to settle the verbal accusations not so I could get a job or make money.  To those who apply for government positions and are afraid to fail a poly i hope you never run for political office!!  Ive done and said things I wish I could take back but donating a kidney is not one of them.

Which questions did he "fail"?

(Yeah right.  Why don't I believe you?)  My husband is one of the latest victims of this polygraph nightmare scam.  There goes our hopes and dreams for FBI job.  Hubby says he told the truth but it doesn't matter.  I wonder if it's because hubby needed the job - been on disability (for cancer battle) and then on unemployment - and the need for a good job caused him to become nervous.  Plus, we had never heard of this website before.  Clueless and naive.  Who knew?!  Hubby says the polygrapher begged him to just tell the truth so he (the polygrapher) could become his "advocate".  Sheeeeesh already.  Hubby told the guy, "So you want me to make up a lie so I can pass this test and you can become my advocate?"  If it weren't so tragic, it would be funny.  I was wondering also if sitting for that length of time - especially if you're still recovering from cancer surgery & radiation treatments - made a difference.  Who knows?  It's a crap shoot.

One thing we learned from all of this:  NEVER TRUST THE GOVERNMENT!!

nonombre wrote on Jul 14^th, 2005 at 5:13am:


What good?  Have you seen the bad it causes???

For crying out loud, this "compromise" you refer to is such that for every accurate call (i.e. guilty person busted/innocent person vindicated) there is an inaccurate call -- innocent person labeled as deceptive!

This is 50/50.  Let's just flip a coin!  Or use CVSA????

BTW, can you explain why polygraphers look down on CVSA?

Jeffery wrote on Jul 14^th, 2005 at 4:54am:


I know that, Jeff.  All I am trying to do is present a possible answer, a "compromise" if you will.  I guess none of us here have all the answers.

What I do know is that federal, state, and local agencies of all kinds continue to place great value on the polygraph (whether you believe it is legitimate or not).  I, for one have seen the positives that can be derived from polygraph testing.

Yet, there is a very legitimate community of people who have an equally legimate beef with polygraph (mostly in screening)

All I am trying to do is offer an avenue of compromise if that is at all possible.  Nothing else.

Nonombre

nonombre wrote on Jul 14^th, 2005 at 4:38am:

You should know that some polygraphers post here masquarading posts like this to discredit this site.  Documented and proven.  Not saying that was done here, but take some of these posts with a grain of salt.

I don't think anybody has a RIGHT to a police job; but I think they have a RIGHT to a fair and impartial process.  Polygraphics is blatantly unfair.  I know you have your point system, but until that becomes reality it is moot.

And once again, I subscribe to the theory that "better that one hundred guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer."  (and for arguments sake, many of those 100 guilty men could certainly be excluded from employment had proper investigations been done).

Your industry has caused enough suffering (in the area of screening polygraphs).  I look forward to the day when dignity returns to this country.

importscout wrote on Jul 14^th, 2005 at 3:59am:



Sooo, we wish to 'fudge' some drug use numbers?"  So, while we are at it, let's "fudge" some drug transactions, "fudge" some thefts.  How about we "fudge" that kid we fondled, or that little lady we got high and raped while she was passed out?

Come one, come all, we'll d our best to teach you how to beat this polygraph test, because after all, the polygraph is the real scourge or our society, not you.  We all know, you have the RIGHT to a job on the police department!

Thanks!  I'm a little scared of my next poly because it is with my choice agency and I scored 100% on my oral review, which would place me in the top tier to get in if I can just pass the damn poly!  I am not an advocate of lying outright for lying's sake, but I would like to 'fudge' some drug use numbers because I don't feel those should be held against me in the hiring process.  

Is controlling your breathing and keeping the sphicter muscle relaxed when asked a relevant question enough to not show a result (or a result that is significant compared to a control)?  What if the question makes you nervous or bothers you, in spite of your best efforts to keep your breathing even?

importscout wrote on Jul 13^th, 2005 at 8:05pm:

Importscout,
You make a very good point.  Rather than testing for deception or honesty, the polygraph does seem to test only your skills at taking a polygraph.  

If you measure the validity of the polygraph by the amount of damaging admissions it solicits (which many pro-polygraph people on this board tend to do), then it would be fair to say that as one’s skill at taking a polygraph increases, the validity of the polygraph decreases.  That sounds like a good reason for why so many polygraphers are so upset about this site and the information found on it.

I too was accused of moving, It was very challenging to sit absolutely still while hideously uncomfortable in a wooden chair staring at a blank wall.  Using polygraphy junk science, he probably read my slight movements in my neck and back as being a 'squirming deceptor.'  He also told me that he I should lean back and close my eyes, which I felt would add more impact to his words, but he allowed me to keep my eyes open. 

He was a hardnosed a-hole, but the funny thing was that this fellow had been doing this for so long, that he didn't pull it off genuinely.  It was obvious that he was faking it.

I'm not convinced that honesty is the best policy, because it will not satisfy your interrogator.  For example, no matter how many times you say you smoked weed, he will ask you if you smoked it more.  No matter how many minor thefts you've committed, he'll as you if you stole more.  The more I read the book and this message board, the more I understand that the poly tests your poly skills and nothing else, and that 'truthefulness' is a dangerous thing to put your faith in.

Quote:


They just use the polygraph to eliminate who they don't want.  It doesn't detect shyte!

well said Sergeant

The spirit of the relevant section of the book, as I understand it, is to provide instruction on how to artificially enhance your reaction to control questions to improve your chances of passing the "test."  While some people will use this knowledge to get away with telling a lie, the INTENT of the book is to allow someone who is telling the truth to lower their chances of being branded "deceptive" even when they are telling the complete truth.

The issue most people have with the polygraph is not that deceptive people are getting caught, it is that honest people are being accused of deception and subsequently "failing" their polygraph exams.  The countermeasures detailed in TLBTLD are intended to address the latter.   

Law enforcement/government agencies that choose to utilize a "test" which can be defeated after a few minutes of reading and practicing breath control should be required to do some real investigative work instead.  Relying on polygraph exams, palm reading, or phrenology instead of actual investigations is ridiculous.

confused,
you definately need to read the book!! No where will it say to lie on a control question! You don't have to lie to cause a response to a control question. You won't GET IT until you download the book.

so you lied on a control question (as you apparantly should) and still failed?

I am sorry to hear that but I also failed one given by the georgia bureau of invesstigation i thought this was the most unprofessional person I have ever met.  I was tested because of theft of money in a jail I worked at. The first thing the examiner said to me was "you know you did it so jsut go ahead and admit it now because you just ruined your career over 360.00 dollars". I was also any answer that I failed on out of ten questions that automatically made me failed the whole test.  I had an idea who took it and one of the quetions was "do you know where the money or any parts of the money is?"  the guy I assumed took it had just came to  work with all new clothes on the day before.  and he asked if I had ever told a lie to someone I loved, I thought that was none of his business so I told him no.  I had just told my mom that everything was okay on my job so that she wouldn't worry being in another state that same morning. so between the anger I felt from being accused by the examiner when i walked through the door and the question I knew that I lied about I failed.... but the job didn't fired me for that they waited until I did something else then fired me year later.....

Variable06,

It may come as no surprise to you that the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute has studiously avoided doing any meaningful research into the test/re-test reliablity of CQT polygraphy. Were double-blind studies to be undertaken, there can be little doubt but that the results be devastating to the credibility of the polygraph community -- and they know it.

If the top secret clearance you and your co-workers need to apply for requires polygraph screening, you might consider sharing the information available on AntiPolygraph.org with your colleagues. If you're concerned that doing so might bring you unwanted attention, there are ways to do so anonymously, for example, by e-mail through an anonymous remailer (you'll find one with a web interface here) or by placing any of AntiPolygraph.org's posters in appropriate locations.

Ill share a quick and very similar experience with you all. I recently (late fall 04) was finishing my application process for a federal law enforcement agency and made it all the way to the poly.  I had to take the polygraph on 2 different occasions.  Both times were "inconclusive".  Here's the kicker...The examiner, who by the way was the same person both times, accused me of having reactions to different questions the second time.   The first exam I "had a strong reaction" to the question regarding "contact with foreign intelligence agencies" , and the second exam it was "not being truthful on my application".  How I was treated on both occasions is also a matter of contention with me.  The first was nothing but intimidation and guilt trips.  The gentleman would make sighing questions off and on during my exam and generally made me feel uncomfortable.  The second, and the same examiner mind you, was very cordial and friendly.  Im sure he didnt remember mebut still...I wont get into my views on the validity of these tests, you all I believe of a very similar opinion.  The worst part for me is yet to come.  For my job we have recently been notified that all our work will be classified top secret as of the end of february, and we all need to apply for clearances......<enter appropriate curse word here>.  Sorry to hear that so many are having problems similar if not worse to mine.

I have taken 6 polys and 3 cvsa's for police jobs and they all vary.
I past them all but everyone of them always seem to hit on some question. It was never the same either. One was on drugs the other on battery another was for theft and another for sex. No matter where you take it they always try to get you to admit something. Just relax listen to the question and stand by your answer. Pick something to mentally focus on a phrase a crack on the wall or ceiling what ever. Just keep your mind occupied on something other than the examiner and his interogative questions and of course be honest. Most of us in law enforcement aren't angels anyway we are human. Don't give up all is not lost just cause one agency cycled you out does not mean the rest will. It takes alot of tries before you land a good one.  8)Hope this helps and good luck to you all

Hello,

Sorry to hear of your experience.  I had a similar one this past year.

I am 39 and changing careers to law enforcement.  No criminal record ,no drug usage, no alchohol usage.

I took a polygraph with a fairly large PD (500 officers). It cost me a lot to go to this test at my own expense since I was out of state.  The polygrapher did similar things e.g. the "Don't Move!"   

If these things are so darm accurate then movement breathing and the lot should be irrelevant.

First of all, you are in an artificial environment.  Your blood pressure is increased artificially,  your breathing is restricted artificially, you are not allowed to make natural movements, and you are told to stare at a wall for 20+ minutes.  That sounds like real science to me. Not!

How can a scientific method be applied when their "Control Group" is not natural.

It is like sticking a plant in a dark closet, vacuuming out the area and coming back in a few days to find it wilted and say. Hmmmm, this plant must have been sick.

Anyway, a few days later I got a letter in the mail stating that I PASSED the polygraph and psychological exams.

Over 2 weeks after the exam, I got a call stating that they made a "mistake" (I thought they didn't make mistakes) and that I had failed the polygraph exam.  They wouldn't say why. After several weeks of pressuring for an answer, I received a letter that totally ignored the fact that the first letter existed.

Since that time, this PD is in damage control mode.   

I hope it is some comfort to you to let you know taht you are not alone.

[color=Maroon][/color]Hello, I feel your pain. I recently took the polygraph for the police and had some questionable responses. I know I never commited a crime or did drugs, but for some reason I still did not have a clean poly. I was scared to death! I still made it to the interview process, but I  am worried about that too

Sorry, that really sucks. I have one coming up and I hope mine doesnt go the same way.