Hey s-X-e

To answer some of yor questions,  I used both physical and mental.  I applied the countermeasures in the way I understood it.  Which is, use the countermeasures on the irrelavent questions and did nothing on the relavent ones.  Actually there was only one question I was deseptive about.  The countermeasures worked.  I think it made me more nervious knowing I was applying countermeasues rather then being deseptive.  I also did apply the countermeasures throughout the whole test.  I didn't want to slack off and have the test start to look odd.

Saidme,

The fact that you make an analogy between the polygraph and the space shuttle tells me that you have absolutely no scientific background whatsoever.  Your analogys, and inability to use them properly, tell me that you don't really understand the science (what little science there is) behind the machine, or that it has no scientific validity at all in detecting deception or differentiating truth.

You think it works based soley on the confessions you obtain.  If you think your charts are indications of deception or truth I think you are either brainwashed or delusional.   

Better purchase a new pair of boots and take that uniform out of mothballs because I feel you might have to go back to humping a beat to pay the bills.

Zurren wrote on Aug 13^th, 2003 at 4:55pm:


Zurren, congratulations on passing your polygraph exam. I'm curious about a couple things regarding your examination. First, what countermeasures did you use? All physical, all mental, some of each, etc? Second, did you lie to any relevant questions? I'd like to know how much effort you used in applying your countermeasures and whether or not you had to overcome any strong reactions you might have given on relevant questions (i.e., if you lied). 

I didn't think my post would generate this kind of attention.   

Well for whom cares, I practiced these countermeasures.  I did so on a similar chair as the one I would be on and I practiced in front of a full body mirror.  They can not physically be detected unless you really screw up.  It was as if I was just sitting there motionless.  Now the countermeasures effect was obviously (to me anyways) working on the machine also.  How could I be asked the same questions and answer the same way but have a totally different result?  Because they worked?

The machine can be beat.  The machine has been beat.  The machine beats both the right and the wrong people.  These are lives that are being messed with here.

Thomas Sowell made another observation that perfectly caputures the effect that this website is having on polygraph operators:

"It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites."

Saidme wrote on Aug 13^th, 2003 at 3:19pm:


Thomas Sowell addressed this question perfectly when he wrote,

"No matter how disastrously some policy has turned out, anyone who criticizes it can expect to hear: 'But what would you replace it with?' When you put out a fire, what do you replace it with?"

You're not getting off the hook that easy.  If you're so hell bent on removing polygraph then you need to come up with an adequate solution/replacement.

Saidme wrote on Aug 13^th, 2003 at 3:45am:


In my opinion, the polygraph and belief in it are so deeply flawed, in most of its current uses, that doing without completely would be an improvement.

As an interrogation prop for going after criminal subjects for confessions, I'm sure it's quite adequate.  But to actually put faith in any existing technique to discern truth from falsehood is (again in my opinion) wrongheaded and worse than nothing.

Skeptic

If you're trying to make things better, than what's your answer to polygraph?  What should we replace it with?  Should we discontinue it's use until the George's of the world come up with something?  I think not.  I'll use it until something better comes along.  We've got cases to resolve.   

Saidme wrote on Aug 13^th, 2003 at 2:46am:


The actual finding was:

Quote:


-- NAS Report, Executive Summary, p. 4

You'll note a couple of things.  First of all, they don't give a reliability rate, period.  Second, they caveat the statement regarding the populations that are being discussed (e.g. subjects "untrained in countermeasures").  Third, the NAS is, in the above, specifically talking about polygraph research -- exactly the sort you seem to disdain as unrepresentative of the polygraph in the real world.

Finally, if you take an 85% accuracy rate yet hold 100% confidence in your results, you're talking about barking up the wrong tree 15% of the time.  That may sound OK, but we're talking about an awful lot of misdirected investigations and wrongfully accused people.

Quote:


Nope.  But we're always trying to make things better.  If that means a system is fatally flawed, we change it out.  There's no way the Shuttle would fly if engineers gave it only a 75% chance of reaching orbit.  And though your courage is remarkable, I sure as heck wouldn't fly under those conditions, either.

Skeptic

Skeptic

You stand corrected on a couple of comments:

First let's take your CM statement.  I have no doubt CM's can cause physiological changes during the course of a polygraph examination.  My contention is that a competent examiner can and will detect CM's (turn off the clock Drew).  We (polygraph examiners) have and continue to demonstrate it regularly.  I know Drew would like a little lab coat and white room to do his test but face reality, the important work is in the field.

Regarding specific issue testing (which is what I do).  Your coveted NAS study (which I have no regard for) states something to the effect that specific issue testing is "far above chance" but less than perfect.  Is far above chance 90%, 95%, 98%.   I think I would take any one of those numbers to the bank.  Let's even concede 85%, still pretty damn good.   

Let me caveat this next statement so your co-horts don't take this out of context.  The most recent (and more recent) shuttle disasters were horrendous.  America lost a lot of great astronauts in both instances.  The shuttle and the technology driving those shuttles is awesome.  The people working on them are extraordinarily bright.  Were the shuttles 100%?  Obviously not.  Would I volunteer to ride the next shuttle to space?  In a heartbeat.  Anytime you factor in the human element you've got room for error.  Polygraph is no different.  It's pretty damn good but face it, nothing's perfect.

I guess my long winded point really takes a jab at the scientific community.  They of all people should know that nothing is 100%.  Unfortunately you get whiners like George who claimed to have been wronged.  And none of us truly know why George failed his  polygraph, do we?

Saidme wrote on Aug 13^th, 2003 at 2:11am:


Of course you do.  Unfortunately for your analogy, it is a documented, scientific fact that countermeasures can influence the results of polygraph "tests".  We have no such information regarding your credentials, though you'll note that, for the most part, I've avoided making an issue out of it, as it simply doesn't matter much.

It's true that one simply can't know, on a site such as this that allows anonymous posting, the truthfulness of any claim made in absence of corroborating evidence.  That is why it is so important to take claims such as Saidme's regarding the ability to detect countermeasures with a grain of salt.

It really doesn't matter whether "Zurren"'s being truthful or not.  What matters is that the science says the polygraph is not reliable enough for the uses to which it's put, and that polygraphers (despite having been challenged to do so) have not demonstrated an ability to detect countermeasures above chance.  Thus, for the record, I find "Zurren"'s statement completely in line with the facts of the matter, Saidme's confident (and self-serving) assertion of true faith notwithstanding.

Skeptic

P.S. five stars after 251 postings, IIRC.  It might have been 300 or 350, though...

George

Where is my 5th star.  You don't think I play these games for free do you?

Much like my credentials are questioned, I question the timing as well as the source of this and other sources.  I think I read a post Batman put on here once where he suspected George (or one of the other anti folks) of having multiple handles.  I think the caped crusader was on to something.  Regarding my view on CM's?  Like a rock baby!

Saidme wrote on Aug 13^th, 2003 at 1:46am:


A simple acknowledgement that you were wrong in your prediction regarding countermeasure efficacy would suffice, Saidme.  But as I said, it's hardly necessary, as the accuracy of your confident, expert prediction is now obvious.

Perhaps detecting countermeasures isn't quite as easy as Saidme likes to assert...

Skeptic

Skeptic/CC

Wow, my whole life's been transformed by this revelation.  Maybe I'll just put my black box and snake oil away and join you and George and Gino and Drew.  Sounds like a hell of a good time.  NOT!  I do have a question for Z.  Why would you want to work for a place that's known as a "backwards hillbilly" place?  Hmmm.

Saidme wrote on Aug 12^th, 2003 at 7:36pm:


So, will Saidme now publicly admit he was wrong and retract his statement?

Doesn't really matter, of course -- it was only a rather poor attempt at suggestion, anyway, and the facts just aren't on his side.  Still, it would be nice to see him admit his prediction was evidently very wrong.

Skeptic

LOL saidme you really are a character aren't you?

The feelings Zurren was experiencing was a fight between the truth fairy and her evil brother the deception orge taking place within the base of his brain.  The tingling down his spine occured when ever the truth fairy's wand scratched his spinal cord.

Panic??  What are you talking about?

OK.
I just got back from the test.  I passed.  The tester was kind of surprised that I gave all the same answers on this pre-test questions as the last one and passed.  He asked if I was thinking of something the last time that made me nervous.  In fact there were a few things I felt might have been contradictory of what I read in the book.  When I got in his offices (cluttered with investigation work and stuff on every inch of the wall) he sat down and said "check it out dude.  John Dow is really pushing to get you hired.  Tell me the last year you have ever used any drug and we will fix the days and go off that."  Instead however, I decided to go with the stuff I read and stick with my story just in case it was a set up.  I used the countermeasures exactly how I read them and passed.   This agency is also known as a "back woods hillbilly" place so maybe they are not as professional as explained in the book.

Any ways, I am a total believer in this book.  I see how the polygraphs are unreliable now. The book was also interesting reading.  I will tell friends and family about this site.

Oh and I need to get this off my chest.  I only lied about some minor drug use I did about 10 years ago.  I already put it on my application and didn't want to get denied for changing my story later.  So this site didn't help some murderer or crazy person pass a poly 

Zurren

It's because you are beginning to panic.  If you plan on lying to the relevant questions on the test, your physiological responses will far out weigh anything you do CM wise.  Fear of detection will kick in.  If you think you're experiencing panic now, wait until you're attached to the polygraph components.

You are experiencing emotional symptomatic responses to the physical act you are initiating.

Physical responses and emotional triggers to those responses are a two-way street. In other words, the 'Fight or Flight' response can be initiated by visual cues or by intentional mimicing of the physical manifestations of the response. In other words, 'sadness' can be felt by tightening the diaphragm, decreasing the depth of your breathing and increasing the rapidity of breaths, and 'stuttering' or catching your breath on the exhalation just like when you were a child and you were trying to stop crying.

So, whatever you're doing physically as you are practicing your countermeasures is dredging up some sort of symptomatic responses that are 'running chills' up and down your spine.

When I practice these countermeasures (breathing, puckering, bad thoughts and tounge biting) I almost get a chill down my spin.  Is this normal?

Now that I think of it,  it's almost like I'm beginning to panic.

Quote:

Furthermore, if you filled out information regarding your drug history on a written application, such an admission even during the pre-test phase may be considered an admission to falsifying your application.

My advice is to be truthful to a potential employer from the first time you are asked about something. Once you have told them the truth, do not deviate from it no matter how much pressure they put on you.

Quote:


It's normal for people to make minor admissions to the "control" questions during the "pre-test" phase of a polygraph examination, for example, to having taken small amounts of office supplies home from work, or to having lied to loved ones on certain occasions. But such admissions are not likely to be disqualifying.

On the other hand, changing answers to relevant questions after the "pre-test" phase may well result in disqualification. For example, if one has stated that one smoked marijuana three times and then changes one's answer to "less than ten" times, that may be taken as an indication of dishonesty and used as grounds for disqualification.

I recently took a pre-employment polygraph test for a local law enforcement agency.  I was found deceptive on certain questions.  The paleographer told me at the beginning of the session that if I were deceptive I would fail.  There was no second chances or anything.  However, I have been rescheduled for another test because I was deceptive.  I have also had a high ranking individual involved in a totally different section of the agency tell me to just come out and tell all.  This individual sat there and related to me about the similar branch of military we were in, similar problems we had, and was just my buddy for the conversation.  Now in "the lie behind the lie detector" this seems to fit (as far as the trying to get a confession) in except the part with the individual not involved with the test at all.   

And any info I volunteer on the pre test questions is the same as a confession, correct?