Sorry gang...been gone for WMD training...boy was it a "blast"!! 

Guest from Canada,

We already discussed this, at length, and I don't think she would be putting herself in harms way. She is going to approach it from a "non-adversarial" perspective. Rather than going in screaming "this thing is crap" (which it is), she is simply going to present him with the findings and let him take it from there. He is a good guy, and a very good leader, I don't think she has to worry.

I spoke with an examiner recently, and he realizes that there are false positives and such, but feels it is "worth the price." He feels that it isn't whether the poly is 100%, or even 50% accurate, he said "the value of the poly is in the information obtained from the examinees, be it due to intimidation, belief in the poly's accuracy, etc." The way he sees it, "it scares the hell out people." He realizes it's just a scare tactic and was fairly open about it.

Saidme,

You really should get out more often, I am flattered nonetheless. Maybe you aren't "up to speed" on all my views regarding the polygraph. I do believe there is some benefit and applicability for the poly in criminal matters, just not in SCREENING formats. It's far too flawed, even some pro-poly people admit this. As far as detective work goes, I really don't see that for me...although it's a very important part of LE, it's too boring for me. 

I'd rather be doing the job on the street and teaching others to do the job, no offense to any detectives that may read this. I do find, however, most of them do their job through sound detective work, being out in the field, gathering evidence, forensics, etc., not by simply lining people up and plugging them into a box. They do use the poly when needed. As for what kinds of cases, how often, etc, I really don't know.

I did find out some interesting information. My dept. has 5 full-time poly examiners, 2 strictly for screening, 2 for criminal, 1 that does both. The two "screeners" are both out on leave, 1 for stress, 1 for medical as a result of frequent migraines. I wonder why.  ???

Suethem,

I can only say I'm glad I'm in a position where I have limited contact with them, they're a little bit "different" from REAL cops.  I do occasionally see the examiner I beat up during my poly, I just grin and say hi, all the while I'm thinking "puhleeease." He thinks of himself as being "intimidating", ( he said one time "now that Dale Earnhart is gone, there is only intimidator left"). "Intimidator", yeah, right. 

Best,
PK

PK,

If you need a polygrapher to help you with your cases, your cases are already in  big trouble!

Oh PK, you're my hero.  Come back in about 15 years after you've requested polygraph examinations for suspects in some of your cases (if you ever get in a detective unit).

I didn't mean for it to come across as such.  I meant to say something along the lines that officers who try rocking the boat or who are seen as potential non conformists may not be received into the blue brotherhood as readily.  Trying to discredit a method that the force has been using might shake up the chiefs (and/or other officers) faith and trust in the informing officer.  They might not feel as close to him/her and start to consciously and/or subconsciously ostrasize that "trouble maker".  Look at how the police and pro polygraph community look towrds that ex cop/polygrapher turn cruisader (sorry can't remeber his name).

Quote:


I believed this too, but after recently failing my FBI polygraph my belief has been shaken.  I think there are true believers in these organizations.

On the question of whether polygraph failures are just a "front" for eliminating candidates for reasons these organizations would rather not explain...  has there been any research on race and gender and polygraphy? 

Canuck,
Any "open-minded guy", as poly-killer said this particular chief was, would not stoop so low as to derail someones career simply because they presented a plausible informed argument against poygraph usage. Believe it or not there actually are people who truly believe the polygraph works. Most of them are polygraphers, but not all of them. I think that the majority of people who do believe in the polygraph do so simply due to an ignorance of the true facts. What poly-killer's friend proposes to do is enlighten one of those people.
In hindsight I think she should have went ahead and gone to the school. Then she could have come back and told the chief that what she learned was a bunch of lies and voodoo science and she wanted no part of it.

I hate to disagree but I don't think taking the anti poly info to the chief will do anything but potentially harm a career.  I have to think that it is best for one to not rock the boat when it comes to a LE career.  Conform, continue to do your little bit each day and continue to collect your paycheck.  Do and learn what you can while you are in and save the crusading for later.   
 
I put the chances of making a police chief sit up and take notice at around 1%.

I can only assume that the upper crust of the force in question has some assemblance of intelligence.  Anyone with two brain cells to rub together, and a shred of scientific logical thinking ability can research and deduce that the poly can't detect lies!  As we all know it is a farce.  I am 100% sure that the police forces know this too and are maintaining it in their programs strictly as a thumbscrew type scare tool to gain confessions, and as a backup measure to weed out undesirable applicants under the guise they "did not pass the poly".

I have a hard time believing that the police actually think this machine works to detect lies.  If they have the wool pulled over their eyes to that degree then we had better start worrying about their ability to properly police and protect us.

Suethem,

Judging the way Felt-Up went around the site yesterday posting mindless chatter, I'd have to say you're on to something. Maybe THAT'S why he's "Fed-Up", maybe he isn't an EMPLOYEE of the Government, maybe he's a TEST SUBJECT. 

PK

Fed-up-Fed,

Unfortunately, Dr. Drew can't recruit you as one of his test subjects for his 'brain wave' test, for obvious reasons...

Yes, maybe Drew can recruit her to run his new and improved "brain wave" lie detector.

PK,

I'll keep my fingers crossed, too. Your friend might wish to contact Dr. Drew Richardson, whom I suspect would be willing to provide her with a letter of support that she could include with her documentation packet for the chief. She can contact Dr. Richardson by sending him a private message through this message board.

George and co.

Apparently she is willing to see this thing through, she is compiling all the data she can, in order to present a well-organized case to the Chief. 

Like I said, I have high hopes that she is successful with this, because the Chief for that department is very influential and has many powerful friends. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

By the way, she did tell me that she registered today, but during the conversation, I forgot to ask her username...go figure.

PK

fed-up Fed,

The position I applied for does not have a polygraph test as part of its process. 

I believe that the investigator was sharing his honest opinion and not trying to use the old 'I'm on your side buddy' tactic.  He gave detailed information and spoke in a manner that was far from canned.   

I think the dark ways of the polygrapher have rubbed off on you a little.  An investigator is supposed to find out the truth and paint an accurate portrayal of a subject. 

Leave the lies and trickery to the polygrapher!  It's the only thing they're good at....

Thanks George,

I directed her to this site, although I don't know if she has registered yet. If she hasn't, I am sure she will. I will also forward that info to her. She is definitely not the kind of officer to back down from something like this, if she decides to pursue it, she will go all-out.

Thanks again,
PK

PK,

If your friend goes to the chief to talk about scrapping the polygraph, she might cite the example of the Philadelphia P.D., which ended polygraph screening last year. See the discussion threads NO MORE POLY FOR PHILLY and List of Non-Poly LE agencies?  Want to start one?.

suethem,

I hope everything goes well during your process. Fed-up Fed seems to be a little "put off" by this website and trying to do what he can to discourage you and others on here. (Maybe he should read my initial post.) The only way this should be a huge problem is if you told them you have been frequenting this site and understand polys, CM's etc, which I doubt you did. Other than that, the only thing you may have to worry about is the way the examiners seem to stick together...sort of brothers-in-arms (or brothers-in-fraud). Who knows, maybe you'll get lucky and get an "ethical examiner" (is that an oxymoron?). Anyway, GOOD LUCK!

About my friend, she is actually considering bringing all this information to her Chief. I worked under him for a while and he is, for the most part, an open-minded guy. Hopefully, although it's something of a long shot, he will do away with the poly and start a trend that trickles through to other departments in our state. The dept isn't very big, but it's in a very influential community and his judgments and opinions are usually highly regarded. It would also have a positive impact on the dept budget, right now he contracts outside the agency for polys, which may be added incentive to at least listen to what she has to say.. Like I said, I know it's a long shot, but it has to start somewhere.

Best,
PK

Sue, you just fell for a good interrogation trick - and don't be surprised when they schedule you for their polygraph test.

Poly-killer,

"score another one for the good guys..."

I just met with my background investigator for a job with the Gov. He asked if I ever took a polygraph and 'failed'.  I could feel all the anger rising up...

He asked for what department/ agency.  I told him my local PD.  He then stopped the interview and went off.

He started by saying that multiple applicants he has met in the last couple of weeks had been told they 'failed' by that department.   

He went on to say that it was obvious that this particular department was simply using the 'test' to hand pick its applicants.   He railed against polygraphy as complete bullshit and waste of time and money.

He cited all the checking and cross checking that 'real' background investigators do as the only way to judge someone's credibility and suitability.

It was interesting to hear all this during my background interview.  It felt funny to hear someone working for the Gov lecturing me about the ills of polygraphy.  I would not have been suprised if the investigator pulled off his mask to reveal George himself!

Poly-killer -I am glad that your friend came around.  There are many people within the system that don't believe in polygraphy.    Once one educates themselves on this issue, they will see polygraphy for the fraud it is.  Kudos to her for taking a stand!!!!

A former co-worker ,whom I worked with at the original department I began my LE career with, sent me an email the other day, she was very excited because that agency had approved her request to go to polygraph school. I immediately called her and basically pleaded with her to research the subject further before she ruined anyone's life or career based on this "wanna-be" science. She was very confused at first, understandably so, because of everything she "knew" about the polygraph (or so she thought). I then gave her some info on the poly and several websites (this being one) for her to begin her research.

At about 1830 hrs yesterday, she called me very upset and feeling very guilty. She was so distraught at the thought of what she almost became a part of, she actually considered completely resigning from the department. Not to mention the thought weighing on her mind that she could possibly have been one of the many false positives and never been able to pursue her dream of LE. Of course I helped her realize that quitting was NOT the thing to do, and that she had nothing to feel guilty about, after all, she thought she was doing a good thing for herself as well as the department. The good news is she is staying with the department and NOT going to poly school.  Instead she is going to request training as a background investigator so she may actually be able to be a service, rather than a disservice to the department and it's recruiting efforts. Score another one for the good guys!!


PK