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Topic Summary - Displaying 25 post(s).
Posted by: Dippityshurff - Ex Member
Posted on: Jan 9th, 2006 at 9:44pm
  Mark & Quote
cesium_133 wrote on Jan 9th, 2006 at 7:32am:
I have been to the office where this polycrap will be administered several times, and they may or may not have a metal detector.  I want to say that they have one they don't usually turn on.

Without getting into any specifics (I don't discuss my case with strangers, and it's irrelevant to our message board anyhow), I got into trouble with the law.  The polycrap is part of my "supervised release" (probation, basically).  I can't refuse it, or I get violated.  Thus, I will submit to it, but I don't trust it or the polygrapher, who is supposed to be the same one who did me before.

Even though my PO states that they cannot violate me based on poly results, I choose not to believe him out of an overabundance of caution.  Thus, my answer is to tape for myself what is said and done, in case someone tries to pull a fast one on me.

In your opinion, good members, what could they attempt to do to me if I were caught with a recording device?  My guess is they are recording me as well.  I feel I should have the same right.  Thanks, and I shall let you know how things went... Cesium...



What can be done to you depends on whether your State is a "one party" or a "two party" State.  In a one party State, only one party must be aware that a conversation is being recorded.
Posted by: cesium_133
Posted on: Jan 9th, 2006 at 7:32am
  Mark & Quote
I have been to the office where this polycrap will be administered several times, and they may or may not have a metal detector.  I want to say that they have one they don't usually turn on.

Without getting into any specifics (I don't discuss my case with strangers, and it's irrelevant to our message board anyhow), I got into trouble with the law.  The polycrap is part of my "supervised release" (probation, basically).  I can't refuse it, or I get violated.  Thus, I will submit to it, but I don't trust it or the polygrapher, who is supposed to be the same one who did me before.

Even though my PO states that they cannot violate me based on poly results, I choose not to believe him out of an overabundance of caution.  Thus, my answer is to tape for myself what is said and done, in case someone tries to pull a fast one on me.

In your opinion, good members, what could they attempt to do to me if I were caught with a recording device?  My guess is they are recording me as well.  I feel I should have the same right.  Thanks, and I shall let you know how things went... Cesium...
Posted by: Jeffery
Posted on: Jan 8th, 2006 at 7:33pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
You may have to go through a metal detector at the building.  Getting 'caught' with a tape recorder may not be so hot.
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Jan 8th, 2006 at 4:37pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Cesium,

Under federal law, and in some states, the consent of only one party to a conversation is required, and it would be legal for a person to secretly record conversations in which he participates. But some states require the consent of all parties. See the following guide published by the Reporters Committee on Freedom of the Press for an overview of federal and state laws on taping conversations:

http://www.rcfp.org/taping/
Posted by: cesium_133
Posted on: Jan 8th, 2006 at 3:09pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
First post here, and it is a question to anyone: Smiley

I have a polygraph test coming up, to be administered by a contract employee of the federal government.  It will be on government property, and so (I guess) covered by federal law.

My question: is it legal for me, to the best of anyone's knowledge, to audio-record the interrogation for my own purposes without the knowledge of the polygrapher?  I would, of course, be privy to the fact that the encounter was being taped.  I don't see it as any different that someone wearing a wire to get damning evidence against someone, but I was interested in community opinion.

Thanks for your help  Grin  BTW, I have read Lie Behind The Lie Detector twice, and I find its information quite beneficial.  I would recommend it to everyone here Smiley  Cesium...
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Dec 12th, 2005 at 5:43pm
  Mark & Quote
The Arizona Republic has published a well-researched article concerning the FBI's policy of not taping interrogations (including polygraph interrogations):

Quote:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1206fbitaping.html

FBI's policy drawing fire
Interrogations not taped

Dennis Wagner
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 6, 2005 12:00 AM

In the pursuit of criminals, FBI agents across the nation routinely use DNA tests, fingerprints, ballistics, psychological profiling and the world's most advanced forensic methods.

But a little-known policy at the Federal Bureau of Investigation keeps investigators from using one of the simplest and most effective tools in law enforcement: the tape recorder.

That policy appears in Section 7 of the FBI's "Manual of Investigative Operations and Guidelines": "Use of tape recorders for the purpose of recording the statements of witnesses, suspects and subjects is permissible on a limited, highly selective basis, and only when authorized by the SAC (special agent in charge)."

Standard FBI procedure calls for at least two agents to conduct interrogations: one asking questions and the other taking notes. The notes are used later to produce a typed summary known as Form 302.

When agents testify months or years down the road, they rely on 302s, and memory. As a result, jurors and judges hear recollections and interpretations, not what was actually said. And the defense lawyer often follows up with a cross-examination designed to impugn the agent's memory, competence or integrity.

Critics say the FBI practice leads to botched investigations, lost evidence, unprofessional conduct and damaged credibility for America's justice system.

The policy emerged as a problem for defendants, judges and juries during federal trials of Osama bin Laden, Oklahoma City bombing defendant Terry Nichols, TV star Martha Stewart and lesser-known figures.

When terrorism suspects were rounded up after the Sept. 11 attacks, their statements were not recorded.

When agents conducted a marathon interrogation of Nichols, learning of his involvement with Timothy McVeigh, not a word was retained on tape.

Responding to questions about the policy, William David Carter, an FBI spokesman in Washington, D.C., wrote in an e-mail that taping is strictly limited because it "can inhibit full and frank discussion or can end an interview entirely."

Yet most other U.S. enforcement agencies leave taping to the discretion of investigators - some even encourage officers to record interrogations - without any problem.

Phoenix Police Department policy, for example, instructs violent-crimes detectives to "make every attempt to audio- or video-tape suspect and critical witness interviews in felony investigations."

Officers in Tucson, Mesa, Glendale and Scottsdale routinely tape interviews, as do detectives at the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office and at the Arizona Department of Public Safety.

Carter refused to provide a copy of the entire policy, claiming it is an "internal FBI document." He said he did not know when the rule was instituted or by whom. He did not respond to other detailed questions on the policy.

Carter did say that recording interviews may be a "sound enforcement policy" if the subject is comfortable with a tape machine. However, he added, "The FBI believes that it would unduly burden ongoing criminal investigations and impede immediate law-enforcement responses to fast-breaking criminal events to require that all witness statements be recorded."

Motive unclear

Thomas P. Sullivan, a former U.S. attorney from northern Illinois who has studied the issue for several years, described the FBI practice as "baffling" and "sorely out of date."

"I don't get it," said Sullivan, now a defense lawyer. "They have the most sophisticated electronic equipment you can think of in the federal government, and yet they don't use the most simple equipment."

In his research for Northwestern University School of Law, Sullivan queried police agencies in 43 states and found that recorded interrogations are a benefit to police and the justice system. He also noticed a clear trend toward taping.

"Sooner or later, the federal government will get on board," he said. "I've talked to more than 400 police departments and sheriff's offices where recordings are used. I can't remember anyone who didn't like it.

A. Melvin McDonald Jr., a criminal-defense lawyer who once served as the top federal prosecutor in Arizona, referred to the FBI policy as "insane."

"It blows my mind trying to think of a rational reason for it," McDonald said. "They are usually on the cutting edge, and to say, 'We're not going to do this,' just makes no sense. . . . It's Investigations 101. I don't ever question a criminal-defense witness without taping it."

Some defenders of the FBI policy suggest that taping and transcribing interviews would become a logistical nightmare and a waste of money for an organization with 11,000 agents.

Sullivan said recorded interviews actually save money because they result in more guilty pleas, fewer defense motions to suppress confessions and fewer lawsuits over wrongful prosecution. Moreover, if FBI agents used tape recorders they wouldn't have to double-team their interviews, so staffing costs would be cut in half.

Steve Drizen, legal director at Northwestern Law's Center for Wrongful Convictions, offered another possible motive: "The main reason why the FBI does not want to record is that they do not want to let the public or juries see how brutal their psychological interrogation tactics can be."

Frederic Whitehurst, an FBI supervisor-turned-whistle-blower, said: "By not having the real data, the evidence of what was actually said, they can control the interpretation, the spin on it. . . . And you have no way to tell if they're making a mistake."

For those who doubt that FBI agents would forget, leave things out or twist the truth, Whitehurst points to the words of Danny O. Coulson, a high-level administrator at the bureau. In his book, No Heroes: Inside the FBI's Secret Counter-Terror Force, Coulson described how he became the target of a criminal probe after a botched case and agreed to be interviewed only if he could submit a sworn statement as part of the case file.

"I had seen too many criminal investigations in which FBI agents conducted interviews and then paraphrased their subject inaccurately because they were unfamiliar with the complicated subject matter or had their own spin on the case already."

Pros and cons

Jana D. Monroe, special agent in charge for the FBI in Arizona, said she authorizes taping on a case-by-case basis and considers it a useful strategy in some circumstances.

Monroe encourages agents to record interviews of juvenile defendants and child-abuse victims in Indian country to document that no coercion or prompting was used.

That rationale does not apply to most cases. In sworn testimony, FBI agents routinely find themselves defending the policy, as well as the accuracy of their Form 302 notes and memories.

Monroe noted that some U.S. attorneys have begun to press the FBI for a rule change, adding, "I don't know what the future will bring."

However, she worried that tape recordings could undermine prosecutions in some cases by revealing lies and psychological ploys that agents sometimes use during interrogations. "That might not look real good to jurors."

On the other hand, there is evidence that the FBI's no-taping practice is a turnoff for those charged with rendering verdicts.

Early this year, a federal jury in Philadelphia acquitted a banker accused of lying to agents because the only evidence was the agent's scribbled notes and testimony. "We wouldn't have been here if they had a tape recorder," one juror told the Associated Press.

The issue also proved troubling in Nichols' 1998 federal trial. Under oath, agents acknowledged that Nichols refused to sign a Miranda form but claimed he waived his rights to an attorney. Defense attorney Ronald Woods challenged that account by Agent Scot Crabtree and demanded to know why investigators failed to tape 9 1/2 hours of questioning with a suspect in the Oklahoma City bombing.

Jurors convicted Nichols of conspiracy but found him not guilty of murder at the Alfred P. Murrah Building. Afterward, jury forewoman Niki Deutchman told reporters the lack of recordings was a key weakness in the government's case.

Harvey Silverglate, a Boston defense attorney, said he despises the FBI policy because it allows agents to twist statements made by witnesses and suspects but also because it puts the nation at a greater risk of terrorism by undermining the bureau's intelligence-gathering mission.

"The system is not put together for efficiency or accuracy," Silverglate said. "It's put together for ease of prosecution. And in an age of terrorism, it actually poses a threat to national security."

Taping required

Illinois, Maine, New Mexico and Washington, D.C., have adopted statutes that require taping. Supreme court justices in Alaska, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey and New Hampshire have ordered police to record suspect interrogations.

Detectives in Mesa, Scottsdale, Chandler, Peoria and Gilbert record interviews with felony suspects at least half the time.

So do their counterparts in Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, Denver, Miami, Portland, Houston and hundreds of other communities.

Sullivan, who has surveyed police agencies nationwide, said most have no formal policy, so it's up to investigators. However, he said the taping of interviews is a clear trend nationwide.

Neil Nelson, a police commander and interrogations consultant in St. Paul, Minn., said recording leads to better investigations, more crimes solved, enhanced professionalism and less time spent in court.

Nelson started using a recorder during the 1980s because he couldn't keep track of suspect statements when his narcotics team busted crack houses. Now, all police in Minnesota are required to tape suspect interviews by court order.

"It is the best tool ever forced down our throats," Nelson said. Nelson, Sullivan and others dispute the argument that audio or video recording interferes with investigations or makes defendants clam up.

A 1998 study for the International Association of Chiefs of Police reported "little conclusive evidence" that videotaping affected suspects' willingness to talk. Instead, researchers found, "the majority of agencies that videotape found that they were able to get more incriminating information from suspects on tape than they were in traditional interrogations."

The law in many states, including Arizona, allows detectives to record interviews without a suspect's permission or knowledge. Even when a tape machine is visible, Nelson said, suspects usually blab away. And in cases when a defendant gets uptight or refuses to speak, agents can simply turn off the device and take notes.

Ultimately, Nelson said, recorded interviews shield detectives from allegations of misconduct.

"Taping preserves the integrity of the officers and the interrogation process. What you say on tape, you have to be careful. You can't be like Sipowicz on NYPD Blue and expect to have a career in law enforcement."


The article includes the following sidebar:

Quote:
Reasons to record

Most law-enforcement agencies in the United States have no policy on the recording of interviews with criminal suspects or leave it to the investigator's discretion. Where no recording exists, federal courts allow law enforcement to testify about defendant statements. Proponents of taping cite a number of reasons why tape recording should be a routine part of interviews with suspects and witnesses in major felonies:

An accurate, permanent record of the statement is retained for future use by investigators and in court.

False confessions and false prosecutions are less likely, as well as lawsuits that emanate from those problems.

Public confidence in law enforcement and the justice system is enhanced.

Detectives are more likely to conduct interrogations in a professional manner and are better able to focus on suspect responses.

Defendants' rights are safeguarded; investigators are not subjected to allegations of coercion, dishonesty or other misconduct.

Defense attorneys are less likely to file motions to suppress admissions made during interrogations.

Taped confessions induce more guilty pleas.

Recorders are useful for law-enforcement training.

Source: "Electronic Recording of Custodial Interrogations: Everybody Wins," by Thomas P. Sullivan, in the Journal of CRIMINAL Law and Criminology.
Posted by: Marty
Posted on: May 27th, 2003 at 3:54am
  Mark & Quote
Seeker wrote on May 22nd, 2003 at 11:07am:

.... And, Chris, the SAT is NOT a test of learned information.  It is a test of your ability to take standardized tests.  A person with excellent test taking skills can very easily score incredibly higher than their actual knowledge base. 

Seeker


Seeker,

I've come to wonder about the evolution of the term "standardized test" into a sort of epithet. That a test is "standardized" simply means that it has some sort of repeatability or consistency in administration. The term "norming", another such term, means that scores are mapped in some way to a fixed distribution, possibly a specific demographic or time frame. That these tests, like all tests, have various reliability issues and especially biases is also true but this has little to do with standardization per se. One can find all sorts of criticisms of standardized tests but little in the way of alternatives other than warm fuzzies such as "authentic" (sounds good)! learning assessment, etc. There is a great deal of passionate*, well intentioned but poorly researched work in all these areas.

If it is so hard to effect assessment and control over these processes critical to the whole society, imagine how difficult it will be to bring accountability to the polygraph community. Just look at their response to the NAS study. You know how those pointy headed academics are.

Smiley

*when any research is passionate, it is born questionable. When any teacher isn't passionate, their students start class with a handicap.

-Marty
Posted by: Poly-Killer
Posted on: May 26th, 2003 at 10:01am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Awww, it sounds like the bat may have gotten his feelings hurt at one time. I'm surprised, I didn't know polygraph examiners had feelings similar to those of humans. Sorry bat-fella, couldn't resist.

PK
Posted by: beech trees
Posted on: May 26th, 2003 at 4:12am
  Mark & Quote
Batman wrote on May 25th, 2003 at 1:03am:
The problem here is the only guy that gave me some good shots took a real swing below the belt so I don't dance with him anymore.  It's not that I can't take a good punch to the 'tenders', but the one he gave was totally uncalled for.  He knows who he is, and if you really are the Shadow (which I doubt) then you should know too because, "......the Shadow knows."  Any guesses?


I for one don't have clue to whom you're referring, unless of course it's some sort of trick question (as would be typical of a professional liar) and you are actually referring to yourself. Here's a quote I think pertains to someone who posts on this board... let's see if you can guess to whom *I* am referring:

A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures?- Cicero
Posted by: Batman
Posted on: May 25th, 2003 at 1:03am
  Mark & Quote
Mr. Shadow,

Of course the Bat Cave is littered with with skeletons; how do you think I was able to pass my initial polygraph examination?  Everyone has skeletons, it's just a matter of what kind.  Some are more RELEVANT than others, if you know what I mean!

What do you mean, "in my real job"?  How do you know this isn't my real job?   

Well, OK, it isn't.  In my real job, my co-workers love me, don't yours (in your mind)?  I don't know anyone who doesn't think their co-workers love them.  It's your supervisors you need to worry about.

I once hit the game winning homerun in Little League, does that count for succeeding in anything in my life?

As for always looking for a fight, well you got me there Shadow.  I do love a good knock down, drag out and am always on the look-out for one.  The problem here is the only guy that gave me some good shots took a real swing below the belt so I don't dance with him anymore.  It's not that I can't take a good punch to the 'tenders', but the one he gave was totally uncalled for.  He knows who he is, and if you really are the Shadow (which I doubt) then you should know too because, "......the Shadow knows."  Any guesses?

Batman
Posted by: The Shadow
Posted on: May 23rd, 2003 at 5:26am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Batman,
You speak of your dark side; I think your dark side is your true side.  You find pleasure in jerking the chains of all who post to this site.  You find a perverse joy in making your own prejudiced and opinionated remarks about all who post hear.  You always seem to look for a fight rather than the solution.

In your real job, do you ever get along with your co-workers?  Your entire career is most likely a linty of control material.  I state this only because you preach so much self-righteousness that one can only surmise that you must have a closet full of skeletons in your bat cave.

Did you ever succeed at anything in your life or have you lived such a small shallow existence that you must resort to offending and trying to bully all those with whom you disagree?

Batman does provide for interesting dialogue here, if you are a fan of Jerry Springer.   Wink
Posted by: Seeker
Posted on: May 22nd, 2003 at 11:07am
  Mark & Quote
batboy -
Well, after you call me both a small farm animal (chick) and a helpless human (babe), I tend to justify my lack of response to you.  You did, however, make a legitimate apology even though you followed it with more of your vile language.   
Just for the record:  I am a lady.  "Kick your ass.."    Puhlease, NOT.  I am indeed a lady, and a lady merely spanks the ass of such childish boys who have not been graduated into the ranks of manhood and have been denied the proper upbringing that teaches them to respect not only women, but all humankind.  As a few in here can attest, I have a reputation for gaining great pleasure from doing just that very thing to law enforcement/intelligence agents who mistook their badge and gun for some power trip to try and hide their inner ineptitude.

And my dear Chris,
You know how I feel about the polygraph, and how I feel about your situation.
Having said that, I too take objection to your posting.  I did not mean to imply that you were not devoted, dilligent or intelligent.  You grabbed that statement with fury dear.  Did I hit home?
And, Chris, the SAT is NOT a test of learned information.  It is a test of your ability to take standardized tests.  A person with excellent test taking skills can very easily score incredibly higher than their actual knowledge base.  Similarly, someone who suffers from test anxiety can quite easily score much less than their true knowledge level.   
The polygraph, while not a "test", does NOT measure life experiences!  Wow, wouldn't that be interesting if it did?  The polygraph measures physical responses.  See, I once foolishly thought a polygraph could measure my life expeiences too. I even thought it was some mystical box that could see my deepest and darkest secrets.  Of course that is just too much TV.  We all know that isn't even remotely true now.
My comment on devoted, dilligent and intelligent people is directly related to what I have come to believe to be an accountablility placed on all applicants for a job that requires a polygraph.  You blindly believed in your government.  Nice.  That is a kind thought.  The bottom line here is this Chris, I don't want anyone to be an agent in law enforcement/intelligence agencies charged with my safety and protection who is naive enough to blindly accept anything.  How does an investigator ever get to the facts without research?  If that was your aspiration, to be an investigating agent, why on earth did you not take one hour out of those months you devoted yourself to prepping yourself for the FBI to type into the search bar of your browser the word "polygraph"?   
Sure hindsight is 20/20, but I will back an applicant who comes to the interview table with a solid knowledge of the intricate workings of my company, agency, or business.   
None of this lessens the real and genuine affect a failed poly can have on a person who was genuine and honest.  To that end, yes, the polygraph exam should be audio/video recorded, and yes, it should be completely removed from the application process of ANY job.
This perhaps belonged in the Countermeasures thread, but I believe I have addressed both your comments there and those here.
Regards,
Seeker
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: May 22nd, 2003 at 8:33am
  Mark & Quote
The_Breeze wrote on May 21st, 2003 at 5:45pm:
...
Im seeing alot of posters lately make comments about "dusting" polygraphers or in one hero's example using sophisticated multi level countermeasures.  If you are taking multiple polygraphs you have probably not been hired.  Perhaps you would be more specific as to the agency and the polygrapher?  As no crime is committed in clenching your buttcheeks during a pseudo-scientific ritual, what would you fear from disclosure? simply post the results, or get your charts and show those as well.  In other words stop the idle boasting, and prove how easy this countermeasure business really is. You are not working for the agency anyway, and have nothing to lose. 
Awhile back George, I asked if you wanted to do this on an organized basis and post the results.  You have ignored that request in favor of unscientific, unprovable personal accounts riddled with factual omissions and exaggeration.


Breeze, that polygraphy is susceptible to countermeasures is well established. By contrast, no polygrapher has every demonstrated any ability to detect countermeasures. The discusssion you referenced above is to be found in the message thread Thanks to TLBTLD I PASSED!!!. Skeptical readers may judge for themselves whose arguments regarding polygraphy are based on "unscientific, unprovable personal accounts riddled with factual omissions and exaggeration."

Quote:
And as I looked around the site briefly George I noted that you are not censoring some of the same language that you felt necessary to censor in one of my last posts where BT showed his entire ass.  Is this intentional, or are you engaging in selective censorship on this "free" site?


You were not targeted for censorhip. On 18 March 2003, we upgraded the software used to run this message board. The new software included, by default, a "censor list" of vulgar words that would be automatically replaced by asterisks in all posts. This unintended "censorship" was discovered on 10 April and immediately removed.
Posted by: Brian
Posted on: May 22nd, 2003 at 8:17am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Breeze,
You said,
And Brian, I do not know any agency that uses polygraph as the sole hiring criteria.  Regardless of what you read on these pages, I know for fact that what is used is much more of a whole person approach.  Polygraph has however become the lightning rod of the hiring process, and a way to subjectively dismiss an otherwise acceptable applicant as "not within parameters". This is my belief anyway. 

That is the whole point about the polygraph. 
The USSS and the FBI absolutely use this as the sole criteria.  I know this firsthand, and also from other FBI sources.  The USSS states in their conditional offer of employment that the offer is conditional to passing a polygraph examination.  When at the same time they lie and state in the paper, Washinghton Post author Bill Miller, that the polygraph will not itself eliminate an applicant.
Posted by: orolan
Posted on: May 22nd, 2003 at 1:58am
  Mark & Quote
Breeze,
I still think that audio taping would suffice. And if the applicant passes, and is told right then that they passed, there is no reason to keep the recording. Or, with today's technology, the audio can be burned directly onto a CD on-the-fly in MP3 format by the same laptop the polygrapher is using for the test. I have one CD with 185 songs on it, averaging 6 minutes in length. That's 18.5 hours of audio. Three days worth of polygraphs on one CD. What is impractical about that? And again, I do not advocate giving copies to every examinee. Just make it available to the examinee, or make them pay for a copy if they want one. Plenty of other agencies charge for copies of records, so I'm sure the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. can do the same.
As for the "other causes", I concede that you have a valid point. (Must not be my day. First Batman, now you.) Biased, incompetent and prejudiced interviewers do cause a lot of people to be eliminated. There will always be people like this, because we're all human. Much like the battle to end racial profiling by patrolmen, it can only be stopped by reviewing the acceptance/rejection patterns of the various interviewers. Not sure about the physical fitness tests. But my health spa is full of electronic weight-lifting machines, stair-step machines, running treadmills, etc. Kind of hard to get the machine to discriminate, don't you think?
Having never actually "failed" a polygraph, I am not a pissed off person looking for revenge. But since I basically "flat-lined" a polygraph that I very evidently lied on, without the use or knowledge of countermeasures, I find the polygraph process to be suspect.
Posted by: The_Breeze
Posted on: May 21st, 2003 at 11:22pm
  Mark & Quote
Brian
Its clear we are thinking in different ways.  Let me be more precise.
When I brought up the subject of running or other such tests, I was referring to the idea that such tests could be video taped to preclude abuse, not as a direct comparision to polygraph.
You see, if you piss off the person timing the run for whatever reason, perhaps he might add a few seconds if your close, or downgrade an interview score without cause.  I thought the idea of videotaping was to prevent abuse, was I mistaken?
I certainly did work in the federal system as an agent, and also took and and passed the USSS polygraph (a job I did not take).  I left the Federal system and for personal reasons (like spending time with my family, and not getting a divorce) I went into local law enforcement-where I currently am a detective.
I disagree with your assessment that a failed polygraph is a fatal mark on your record.  Look at Fair Chance's example of how to work within an imperfect system.  Not only has his initial failed polygraph not impacted his current federal position, it has not stopped his current FBI process.
And Brian, I do not know any agency that uses polygraph as the sole hiring criteria.  Regardless of what you read on these pages, I know for fact that what is used is much more of a whole person approach.  Polygraph has however become the lightning rod of the hiring process, and a way to subjectively dismiss an otherwise acceptable applicant as "not within parameters". This is my belief anyway.
And as far as re-testing, an agency should not use the polygraph casually.  If a person fails the drug issue for example, specific re-testing and investigation should occur.  That is only fair to the applicant.

Orolan
When I mentioned something like taping would be cumbersome, you chose to remind me how to turn on a VHS and camera.  I meant it might be impractical in a high volume agency to keep such recordings, and it would be almost out of the question financially to provide a personal video record to each applicant.  We use a time delayed recorder in the 12 hour mode to get about 6-7 tests on one video. See my point?
As far as championing other causes, I would never want anyone to waste excessive time, as some already do here, on further causes.  A simple recognition would be sufficient that human bias, incompetence, arbitrary standards like those contained in some physical tests, certain psychological tests misused for applicant screening...have hurt more than polygraph ever will.  Im sure you get the idea.
Why most working law enforcement officers that need answers dont mind using polygraph is simple.  They have seen it work.  So to be limited by someone who has just failed, and is pissed off, and wants revenge...does'nt sit well.
Personally, I want to request one if I think I need it.

Your zeal will never take the place of my experience.
Posted by: Anonymous
Posted on: May 21st, 2003 at 9:29pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Batman,

There is a considerable difference between the types of thoughts and behaviors that might be loosely grouped together under the heading of "a dark side" and the routine vulgarity you display.  Please share with me anything that Douglas Fairbanks, Sr. did or said on screen that approaches your latest vulgarity addressed to me.  No dude, you are not a depressive genius personality, just a vulgar twit....

And with regard to your listing of agencies on another thread, an impressive listing of bureaucrats perhaps...care to list a dozen of so individuals from any or all those agencies with the academic credentials in the fields of psychophysiology, statistics, etc that were represented on the NAS Panel?  I don't think it was by accident that this independent group of stellar scientists was selected for the relevant study and report and not some ad hoc group of bureaucrats from the agencies you so dutifully listed for us.
Posted by: orolan
Posted on: May 21st, 2003 at 9:14pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Batman,
When I'm wrong I say so. And you're probably entitled to plenty of points just because of longevity.
Posted by: Batman
Posted on: May 21st, 2003 at 9:00pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Orolan,

Thanks, that makes the score Batman- 1 (maybe two because I think someone else conceded a point to me awhile back, but I'm not sure); Everyone Else- 110.

I may be losing but I keep on coming back, is that good for a point?


Hey Anonymous: 
 
Wake up Dude...I repeat, regarding Batman's dark side; the character for Batman was originated by Bob Kane based on a few different inspirations, Leonardo da Vinci's man with wings was the inspiration for the cape and a man being able to fly, Douglas Fairbanks, Sr was the inspiration for Bruce Wayne, but most importantly the old 1935 movie, 'The Bat Wispers' was the inspiration for the overall character.  The movie is about a criminal who led a dark, shadowy life, thus the dark side of Batman!   
 
I know, for I am......   
 
Batman (and I have one hell of a dark side) 

Posted by: orolan
Posted on: May 21st, 2003 at 8:32pm
  Mark & Quote
Batman, Breeze, et al,
As Dr. Richardson stated in his initial post starting this thread "There is no legitimate technological or administrative reason for not routinely audio/videotaping examinations to protect examinee, examiner, and agencies alike." There has been great discussion on this topic, but I believe the statement still stands. Breeze, the polygraph in and of itself is a cumbersome process. I don't see where having the polygrapher reach over and switch on a tape recorder adds to their duties that much. Note that this is a discussion about audio/video taping, meaning audio or video or both. As for giving these tapes and the charts to every applicant, that isn't what was originally asked. Rules already require that the charts be kept for a period of time. The APA says 1 year minimum. The problem is, they are not made available to the applicant should they desire to have them reviewed outside the agency that administered the exam. And while I'm on the subject, Batman and Drew, I have heard from an APA member regarding the requirements of 3.9.8. It was not Dr. Dutton, but this individual is an officer of the APA. He pointed out that 3.9.8 applies specifically to evidentiary examinations, and does not apply to pre-employment screening or other types of examinations. So I am willing to concede the point. Batman, you win this round.
The subject of hypocrisy was raised by Batman due to the fact that we here on the board were not doing anything about medical malpractice and the like. It had nothing to do with other reasons for why applicants were turned down. By the way Breeze, what are these other "preventable causes" for applicant rejection that you would like for us to champion?
Posted by: Brian
Posted on: May 21st, 2003 at 6:43pm
  Mark & Quote
Breeze,

First of all, if an agency is going to pretend they use guidlines regarding polygraphs according to the APA then why would they choose to disregard this measure?

Secondly, I assume you never applied for a fed agent position.  Failing a written exam will not dq your employment, you will be given second, and third chances.   

Addressing your example of applicants be rejected by the running a slow time in a physical exam.  Running a measured distance is a objective measure of one's ability.  A polygraph is far from objective, and no where near scientific.
" Pretending to be excessively outraged about the polygraph, knowing full well that many qualified applicants are lost through a variety of other preventable causes defines the word."
That is so insane, I'm sorry people on this board don't equate getting dq's cause your 6'0" 310 lbs and run the mile in 12 minutes, as opposed to be some attempt to measure truth which is as accurate as flippping a coin. 

So before you cast everyone on here as hipocrits, try to understand the absurdity of using a polygraph as the sole criteria for employment.  Someone also needs to explain to me how something that claims to be 98% accurate can be re-administered to someone if the "results" show someone is lying.  Shouldn't the agency trust the reuslts enough not to allow another polygraph.
Posted by: Fair Chance
Posted on: May 21st, 2003 at 6:41pm
  Mark & Quote
As always , The Breeze brings some interesting discussion points to the conversation. Some that I agree with, some that I do not.

On "Good Morning America" TV Show today, they transmitted from the FBI Training Ground in 
Virginia.  During the show, an FBI official stated that they had over 80,000 applicants for 500 final positions this year.  Certainly the fear of polygraph false positives is not stopping the application process.   

The Breeze has offered that the FBI is using the polygraph procedure inappropriately to thin the applicant pool.  After working for the government for many years and going through the applicant process in the FBI (including three polygraphs), I tend to lean in his direction on this point.  Like it or not, it can allow the agencies to sway the applicant pool according to priorities only known to the hiring agency.  Right or wrong this is the perogative of the hiring agency.

I only disagree with the fact that a permanent black mark would be placed on a person's security background strictly based on polygraph alone. This has and still is happening at the FBI during this process.

I know that videotaping every polygraph session is logistically difficult but the absolute right to take away someone's integrity through polygraph usage must have some kind of check and balance.  Most appeals occur well withing one year of the actual test.  With digitalized recording on DVDs, the actual expense and storage of such exams is feasible.

The actual amount of FBI applicant hires polygraphed is probably 1500 for 500 hired.  For an organization as large and sophisticated as the FBI, recording such exams should not be such a big deal.

My application process is complete but I can not publicly detail my experience.  I did appeal and get a third polygraph in which I passed.  I was also asked if I wanted to proceed with the application process.

I know that government makes mistakes everyday.  In my case, the FBI saw this mistake and corrected it to the best of their ability withing the confines of their guidelines.   I am more impressed with an agency's ability to correct mistakes than I am about the mistakes themselves.  I do not wish to drag the agency through the mud: I would like to see it improve its public image by recording applicant polygraphs since their outcomes have such major impact on an accused person's integrity.  If polygraphs cannot or willnot be eliminated, this is surely a reasonable first step to improvement.

It does not change the feelings I have about the inappropriate use of polygraph pre-screening, especially without videotape or digital recording.  I still believe that recording these exams would vindicate ethical exam givers and takers.  It certainly would increase the perception that the agencies involved were trying to protect applicant rights as well as national security concerns. 

Regards

Posted by: The_Breeze
Posted on: May 21st, 2003 at 5:45pm
  Mark & Quote
Polygraph Malcontents and others

Interesting back and forth about taping/not taping.  Our agency always tapes as a matter of practice, but I can understand how an agency might find that cumbersome. Many things are not recorded in an applicant process (and that is why most of you are here after all) like the physical tests where folks are routinely dismissed for a lack of flexibility or a few seconds over on the run.  Those of you that have failed, and are lashing out via your polygraph experience, just what do you expect an agency to do? keep a video data bank of thousands of prospective applicants to look for the slightest impropriety?  Put your hatred of the polygraph aside for a moment and put yourself in an agency (any agency) recruiter mode.  You have hundreds of applicants a testing cycle that your administration has asked you to narrow down.  The recommendation here is to provide a video, charts and who knows what else to every applicant of the polygraph experience.  Would you do this as an administrator?  You folks sense a cover up, I say its a practical matter.  We dont send the psych tests out for review, or what questions were missed on the written, or a recording of the oral board to see if you were subject to bias / subjective scoring.  I guess any applicant, police or corporate, has to have a certain measure of trust.

Im always amused when the subject of hypocrisy comes up.  The thinking here is that the term does not fit, because we are concerned with polygraph only. Interesting.  I believe that is what the word means in this context.  Pretending to be excessively outraged about the polygraph, knowing full well that many qualified applicants are lost through a variety of other preventable causes defines the word.  When this is pointed out (and I have many times) the idea is dismissed as "off topic".
The fact that many who post here are hypocritical is undeniable in my view.
Based on my experiences, I also have to say that some of the stories presented here lack complete detail, which is expected from those that fail and do not accept an agencies judgement that they are indeed lacking.  I will tell you this, if an agency really wants you-you will be hired.  I wish I had a dollar for every applicant that swore his application was complete, failed the polygraph, and then made specific admissions in the failed area.
Capt. Jones has not only failed his FBI polygraph, but one for a reserve position.  That which repeats itself is not due to chance.  Think about it.

Im seeing alot of posters lately make comments about "dusting" polygraphers or in one hero's example using sophisticated multi level countermeasures.  If you are taking multiple polygraphs you have probably not been hired.  Perhaps you would be more specific as to the agency and the polygrapher?  As no crime is committed in clenching your buttcheeks during a pseudo-scientific ritual, what would you fear from disclosure? simply post the results, or get your charts and show those as well.  In other words stop the idle boasting, and prove how easy this countermeasure business really is. You are not working for the agency anyway, and have nothing to lose. 
Awhile back George, I asked if you wanted to do this on an organized basis and post the results.  You have ignored that request in favor of unscientific, unprovable personal accounts riddled with factual omissions and exaggeration.

And as I looked around the site briefly George I noted that you are not censoring some of the same language that you felt necessary to censor in one of my last posts where BT showed his entire ass.  Is this intentional, or are you engaging in selective censorship on this "free" site?
Posted by: Brian
Posted on: May 21st, 2003 at 8:15am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Getting back to taping the poly:

My poly was taped, but I assume the gov.  isn't just going to turn over my video/audio tape on which the polygrapher explicitly states that I passed the test.  The tape would only prove that I had in fact passed the poly, however, having quota's for underrepresented people is more important than fairness.  Taping poly's (or allowing tapes to be released) would only show the true absurdity of the "lie detector."
Posted by: Batman
Posted on: May 20th, 2003 at 7:34pm
  Mark & Quote
Gangin' up on the Batman are we?

What is it about my posts that brings all the troops to the front?

George, 

Ashamed of what?  My God, Anonymous' post was enough to make anyone sick.  Here I always thought Beech was your head cheerleader, but Anonymous must want the position pretty bad.  I do not recall you ever touting yourself for sainthood, but why would you when you have guys like Anonymous around?

Now, were you really totally truthful on your polygraph?


Brian,

What tree did you fall out of?  You just can't jump in on Batman like that.  You have to establish yourself by receiving a few zingers first.  I'll address you after you've proven yourself more worthy.


PolyKiller,

Appreciate the kudos.  As for what state I'm in, some would argue a pretty awful one.


Ah My Dear Seeker,

To you and only you do I apologize for my crude remarks, in hopes that, if we ever meet on the street you won't kick my ass.  Are you a biker chick?  Got any totoos?   Love ya babe.


To all,

Had a good day today, made even better when I read the notes from all my on-line buddies.  Thanks!!!

Oh, almost left out Anonymous:

Regarding Batman's dark side; the character for Batman was originated by Bob Kane based on a few different inspirations, Leonardo da Vinci's man with wings was the inspiration for the cape and a man being able to fly, Douglas Fairbanks, Sr was the inspiration for Bruce Wayne, but most importantly the old 1935 movie, 'The Bat Wispers' was the inspiration for the overall character.  The movie is about a criminal who led a dark, shadowy life, thus the dark side of Batman!   

I know, for I am......   

Batman
 
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