I was just reading this thread and it's a shame what has happened to papabluemarlin. Here is one of the reasons I think this whole poly screening thing should be scrapped. It doesn't have anything directly to do with papabluemarlin's experience, but it is another example of the inaccuracy of the poly. Papablue, I commend you for standing up for youself, I wish more would do the same.

I have, in the past, advised friends and acquantances to challenge their poly results after being disqualified. A very close friend was DQ'd, his letter from the department stated in part "...showed significant emotional response to several relevant questions. This is typically indicative of deception." When I read the letter, I thought "what kind of wishy washy BS is this?" 

Anyway, the more he tried to challenge his results, the more resistance he ran into. When they finally did allow him to retest, it was at his own expense but they still determined when and where the poly took place. The department also forwarded the results of his first poly to the 2nd examiner and, big surprise, he failed. Since this was his 2nd failure, he was told he was no longer eligible for appointment and could not re-apply for 2 years. The deck was stacked against him from the very start. He was understandably very upset and has since pursued other things. Prior to testing, he had graduated with a bachelors degree and criminal justice and an associates in human resource management, he wanted to move up the ranks. He was so angered by this whole sham, he says no longer even wants to be in LE. This is just another example of our department, who always whines about being "undermanned", and the community we serve, missing out on another individual that would have made an outstanding officer and a great leader.  All because of that fine piece of investigative machinery, the all-knowing polygraph. 

What a shame,
PK

I asked for a copy of the materials in my first letter, but I didn't request a retest because I no longer wished to work with that agency.

PapaBlueMarlin,
Looks like typical BS to me. Did you ask for a re-test in the letter you sent them? If you didn't, you should do so now. You might also ask for the materials related to the 1st one, telling them you wish to submit them to an impartial 3rd-party for QC review.
Odds are they'll tell you that a re-test is not available, and they'll tell you that you can't have the materials. But give them the chance to say so.

This is the letter I received back from state police:

Dear Mr. _____:

I am writing in response to your letter dated May 9, 2003.  At the outset let me say that any and all materials collected as a part of our employment process are considered confidential and will be maintained in a manner consistent with that designation.

It is unfortunate that our hiring process has eliminated you as a potential intern, as you appear to have the credentials necessary to be a successful forensic scientist.  Our present guidelines are very strict in this regard, successful completion of a polygraph test is a mandatory requirement.  A failure to successfully complete the test simply terminates the process and eliminates you as a potential candidate for the available positions.  Termination of the process should not be interpreted as a "reason to discontinue working in this field."  Nor should it suggest to you that future employment with our agency, or other similar agencies, is an impossibility.

I wish you continued success in your endeavors to work in the field of forensic science.

Sincerely,
Captain ______
Laboratory Director

Dear PapaBlueMarlin,

Instead of standing by and doing nothing, you have made an effort to defend yourself and send a letter.  This alone makes you stand above the nine out of ten other people who do not send any letter of disagreement with your stated results.  Some people talk the talk, some people walk the walk.  I admire you for taking the time and energy necessary to send your letter of appeal.

Stand your ground and look in the mirror.   You have done well.  At the end of everything else, that is the final measure, looking in the mirror and accepting the image.

Regards.

I sent my letter of contest out today by certified mail.  Hopefully, the results will acceptable, but I'm doubtful.

Dear PapaBlueMarlin,

I suggested a format on a posting under "Polygraph and CVSA Forums/ CVSA/ RE:Yet Another Polygraph Question dated 11/21/02@12:11:37.  Just substitute your state police instead of FBI.  I have not had anyone contact me positively or negatively after using this format so I cannot tell you how well it works for other people.  Most of the people who stated to me that they were going to use it also stated that they would contact me if they did not get any results within a few months.  I have not been contacted by anyone yet.  It was successful for me.

Good luck (unfortunately, passing a pre-screening polygraph is like a roll of the dice and some luck is needed).

Regards.

I am writing my letter of contest right now.  What should I put in it?

PapaBlueMarlin wrote on May 8^th, 2003 at 4:54pm:

Your whole experience has happened many times to many who "have trusted in the system of polygraph prescreening."

Use your mind and wordprocessor to fight back via that certified return receipt letter today.   

Regards.

Now I feel really stupid for disclosing that information.  I thought I was just being honest and trying to help myself out.

"............I was forced to disclose a traumatic incident where I had been victimized by another boy"

This is why it is  important not to disclose anything, no matter how innocent you think it is.

The is the polygraphers logic is:

1.  There is a troublesome looking readout on the graph.
2.  Okay, now I have to justify this blemish on the graph with some sort of admission.
3.  Trick, deceive, cajol, threaten....etc. the testee until I can get them to make some sort of admission which I can then use as evidence to support the blemish on the graph.

CONCLUSION: DON'T ADMIT SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"What Mr/mse. polygrapher, I failed your question about having sex with farm yard animals?  Must be something wrong with your machine, because  I've done nothing of the sort!  And no, there is nothing  troubling me, and nothing I want to get off my chest. "

TC

As Orolan suggested, you should send your letter challenging the polygraph results and requesting a re-test to your state police. If you do not receive a satisfactory response, then you can take up the issue with your state attorney general.

Who should I write to?  The State Police or the State's Attorney's Office?

PapaBlueMarlin wrote on May 7^th, 2003 at 2:57am:

Dear PapaBlueMarlin,

I was in your shoes.  I appealed my second "not within acceptable parameters" polygraph in writing via certified return receipt mail.   

To make a long story short, after almost one year of an intense background investigation and months of physical tests, the FBI cannot find anything but confirmation of my integrity and ability to do the job.   

The pre-screening polygraph is an interrogation prop which has absolutely no scientific integrity or basis.  As you are a student of empirical results, you must know this by now.

Please write and contest your results immediately.  Go on record and get this entered into your file for the future.

Regards.

PapaBlueMarlin,

I agree with Orolan that you should contest your polygrapher's opinion and request a "re-test." It's important that you do this in writing; it would also be prudent to send your letter by certified, return-receipt mail so that you will have proof that your letter was received. If you don't contest your polygrapher's opinion in writing, your silence may be interpreted as a tacit acknowledgement of guilt/deception.

In addition, you should seek copies of the polygrapher's report, polygraph charts, supporting documentation, and any audio or video recording of the interrogation under your state's freedom of information law. (Most states have a public information access law similar to the federal Freedom of Information Act.) Some who have obtained their polygraph records have found innocuous statements spun into damaging admissions, and in some cases, polygraphers have even fabricated admissions. (Polygraphers who are evaluated on the basis of the number of admissions/confessions they obtain have a strong incentive to inflate/fabricate same, and in most cases, they face little risk of being caught: most polygraph victims apparently do not seek and obtain their polygraph reports.)

As for using beta blockers to reduce one's overall level of reactivity during a polygraph examination, it's important to note that the key to passing is to produce stronger reactions to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions. There is no known drug that will differentially affect reactions to either "control" or relevant questions. However, reactions to "control" questions can easily be created/augmented through self-stimulation, and several techniques for doing so are described in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

no_sugar_coating is in the electronic voodoo business-  so you know where he stands. 

Polygraphers will never admit that there 'test' is garbage.  Like I wrote before, who do you believe?- The National Academy of Science (America's best scientific minds), Dr. Drew Richarson of the FBI Crime Lab or a graduate of 'billy bobs graph'n skool!'

His statement that you have to tell the complete truth to pass,  is factually not true- a lie!!  React to the control questions and not to the relevant and you pass (whether your lying or not).

I went down your road -told the truth and expounded and expounded on definitions, terms and meanings, all to no end but grief.  My friends who have used countermeasures skipped right through the process and all have gotten their LE positions. 

Your appeal of innocents to any polygrapher on this site will be in vain.  They have a money making systems thats easy to perform and new suckers come into the big top every day, all day.   

Your picking the numbers test was just a stim test to gauge your reation for a control question.  Nothing more.
 
Remember they want you to lie, so they know you are not a liar! Our bests LE minds hard at work!

No_sugar_coating:

I was completely truthful.  When they started digging I disclosed as much as what came to me.  Believe me I did not hold anything back and I STILL failed.

I'm a lot less upset now.  My professor offered me a research position analyzing DEA samples of MDMA and possibly helping an undergrad out with a gasoline project so that I'll have arson analysis experience.  This will probably be more hands on than anything I could have done with State Police.

I may be wrong but all my forensic training has been based on empirical evidence and documentation, not extracting something out of someone's head.  If you cannot find it in the physical world then you cannot validate its existance.

One of the examiners as much as admitted to me that his background consisted of a degree in computer science which he intended to use to be an engineer.  Basically he liked polygraphing as it allowed him to travel.  However, he was not the examiner who polygraphed me.  The examiner who gave me the test boasted that he was one of the best in the country and yet there was little evidence from our discussion that he had any scientific or psychological background.  In fact, his demeanor when he was interrogating me was sufficient for me to presume he was just a cop assigned to that area.

The examiner was unwilling to conceed that the questions could illicit shock value or a certain amount of insult or disgust leading to a false positive.  In a lab setting, when investigating an undesired result one must consider all possibilities.

I will not be reapplying to the agency that I polygraphed at, but I intend to reapply elsewhere.  I downloaded "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector" and looked through it.  My question is how can one use countermeasures when applying for a forensic science position?  Wouldn't it be nearly impossible?

You must be completely truthful with the examiner. Do not withhold information. You might have failed b/c you withheld info., not b/c you lied when you said something.

PBM,

You are not alone in being victimized by this  faulty polygraph test.  However your education has certainly not been for nothing.  Now that you  know the personal cost of bad forensic  science, or complete lack thereof,  you can help educate yourself and others to the dangers of  invalid foresic testing or procedures.

The first thing I would suggest is to educate yourself about the polygraph.  This site contains information from the National Academy of Sciences that conclusively says that pre-employment polygraph testing is invalid and infact a threat to national security.

Thoses conclusions were also backed up by Dr. Drew Richarson of the FBI crime laboratory.  He testified before the Senate that the polygraph was a sham.

There are also statements from others who have been falsely accused.

I think that after a couple of days pouring over the materials availible  on the subject you will see just what a scam polygraphers have going.  You as a graduate student in forensics are in a great position to do something about this problem.

I believe that eventually you have to write a paper on a particular subject to get your degree?  I suggest that you make it your personal mission to uncover the BS that is polygraphy.   

If I were you I would first write down every question  they asked you and what happened during the test.  This will give you reference later.

If you trust and like your professor, I would speak to him about the situation.  Maybe you can get an internship somewhere else or do an independant study of some sort. Maybe you can focus it on polygraphy. 

Dont let some dipshit with a couple of hours of "lie detector skoolin" knock you off your horse.  Believe me, with what your learning in your graduate school you are going to go far in life.  None of these jokers have advanced degrees- if fact one of their past leaders may have faked his PHD (see the bottom on the antipolygraph.org page)

The citizens of this country need law enforement foresic scientists that have not sold out to private business. Use this inccident to become a leader in your field.  The National Acadmey of Sciences says its bullshit- polygraphers don't agree- who do you believe?

I didn't believe big tobacco and I am not about to trust any one in the electronic  voodoo box industry. Its not science- its not even good sci-fi- a box that reads your mind- yeah right!!

All that autonomus nervous system bullshit is like a used car salesman telling you that you need quadra steering, self inflating tires on your golf cart.  Read the "lie behind the lie detector" and become familiar with its techniques.   

Keep on trucking with grad school!! Don't ever give up and please write back!  I have several friends who have 'failed' lie detectors with one agency only to be hired by another.  Keep that in mind!!

PBM,
Write down everything that transpired while it's still fresh in your mind. Then file a formal protest with the State Police agency and demand an explanation and retest. If they won't talk to you, take it to the State Attorney General. If they won't talk either, then take it to the Governor. 
As long as those victimized by such actions are content to just let it go or just go around feeling sorry for themselves, the practice will continue. You MUST speak up and fight for your rights, otherwise the government will continue to trample on them.

PBM

Harming yourself is not an option.  If you are still in that mind frame then please call a hotline and talk to some one- or email me back with your telephone number so that we can talk.   

I am a forensic science graduate student and had applied to work at a state police position for my summer internship requirement.  I was thorough enough on the pre-interview questionaire for one of the troopers to say "I can't believe I'm going to have to read all this."

I started filling out paperwork at 9am and it was 1pm before I even got to polygraph.  I had not eaten all day.  We began the test with a numerical test where I picked a number between 2-8, but then answered no to every one of them on the polygraph.  I picked 6.  After running through the numbers twice, he only had my choices narrowed down to 3,4, or 6 and I had to tell him which one I picked.

Then the examiner came up with a list of questions and I passed on all of them except illegal sexual activity.  I was numb with disbelief.  So I basically got interrogated about my sexual activity.  While I am a virgin, I was forced to disclose a traumatic incident where I had been victimized by another boy.  He came up with a list of new questions where at least half of them were sexually based.  I had not done any of the things of the list and I still failed.  Basically I was called a liar and my integrity was challenged.

I went home feeling completely depleted.  I cannot believe I failed the test based upon something I did not do.  I could not get out of bed and even contemplated suicide at the thought my whole education could be for nothing.

This morning I talked to one of my friends and she mentioned that beta-blockers might be used to lower your fear of detection.  I was a bit skeptical because the examiner apparently adjusts the instrument to fit your autonomic nervous system.  But maybe it would take some of the nervousness off when I face a question that has shock value.

To make matters worse, I am not going to be allowed to polygraph again so I have to hunt up another internship.  I am so distraught right now that I don't know what to do.