So, are ANY of you polygraph boys going to answer my question posted earlier,(granted it was in another thread, but since you all apparently are more eager to be in this one, I bring it here) or are you too busy with your smack talking contest to do so?

Again, for the boys who apparently consider silliness more valid than addressing a real question:

Are there any medications or medical conditions that affect the results of your play with your toy of choice -- the polygraph?

I am not asking about a one time dosage type deal, but more of a medical history that has impossed a medical treatment that can interfere with your squiggly line maker?  For instance, how about blood pressure medicine taken by a person over an extended period of time?  Will this affect the outcome?  Or, how about someone who is a chronic smoker who is going through withdrawals because they have had to go without smoking during the song and dance you give in the beginning of an exam?  Maybe even a person who is on chemo therapy?  

Come on fellows, give this simple woman some enlightenment please, and wait until school is out before engaging in any more stick poking.

Sincerely, 
Seeker

Torpedo wrote on Feb 26^th, 2003 at 4:51am:


Yes, Torpedo, you moron, you tripped the right trigger.  Your inability to properly master the English language has sparked another GRAMMAR posting from me.

PLEASE NOTE:  These are my views and mine alone.  They do not represent anyone else on this site!!!!

Quote:


Although I know you would get a "rise" out of seeing me in a tight fitting outfit, I am certainly NOT interested in seeing your "torpedo."   

Though my views drift more toward center than other anti-polygraph types on this site, I assure you, I an not going to ask permission to join your "treehouse club" anytime soon.

Quote:


Thank you for the proof that you have no "reasonable knowledge."  What dogs and many other animals lack are "opposable thumbs," not opposing thumbs.  Opposing thumbs is best described in how you challenge your co-workers to a match of wits (others call it thumb wrestling). 

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Since English, a language you have no concept of, was derived from Latin, I probably shouldn't be beating you up for your improper use of a Latin phrase (and when I say Latin, I don't mean Mexico/Central America).   
Anyway, the phrase is:
quod erat demonstrandum, meaning, literally,  "which was to be proved"
I decided I would beat you up for butchering it, because our beautiful English language gave us the wonderful QED to use in its place, so that simple minded folk like you don't have to worry about the actual Latin words.  But, Torpedo, why should I expect you to take the easy way out, when you can attempt the hard way, and look stupid at the same time?

Chris

See Batman, I told you so.....apparently you "tripped the right trigger"....Now we know what Chris' problem was, and he finally realized that he was standing on the wrong side of the fence.  I'm a lap dog? Hardly...listen to yourself Captain Chris (I think way down deep he wants to be a Justice Leaguer - i.e. Captain America??)  anybody with reasonable knowledge knows that dogs (laps dogs too!) lack opposing thumbs, therefore they cannot hold a stick with which to poke through the fence. Quad error demonstrata, you must be the lap dog at whom the stick is being poked....and it IS a long stick...the question is now....whose lap dog?...(poke, poke) Nice doggie!

Batman wrote on Feb 25^th, 2003 at 9:49pm:


Ladies and Gentlemen, I proudly present to you, SARCASM!!!

Well done, Batman, you finally got that sarcasm thing done right.  Now am I going to have to wait another 50 posts before you do it again?

I'd just like to throw out there for the group the hypocrisy of the caped cruasder.  I wrote this to him:
Quote:


to which he replied:

Quote:


So Batman, thank you for reassuring to me that you are nothing but "cannon fodder" for the pro-polygraph side.  You and Torpedo and your other lap dogs can sit behind your "fence" and poke the stick at us all you want.   

When you point it my way, though, you'd better get a bigger stick, because your current antics will no longer gain my attention.

Chris

Batman wrote on Feb 25^th, 2003 at 9:49pm:


Batman -- you really need to get out more.  Not everything is someone trying to get away with something.  In fact, most people get through life just fine without treating all human interaction as an attempt to manipulate others.

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I've never lied to you, Batman.  I haven't even misled you -- I don't think you can claim the same, can you?  However, I've certainly tried to rile you up.  In my humble opinion, though, I honestly feel you come here to make yourself feel better about what you do.  It's classic projection and rationalization: by condemning others here as "crybabies" or "liars", you don't have to face the fact that you quite possibly screw people over every day.  The problem isn't you.  It's everyone else, and coming here gives you the opportunity to tell them.

Skeptic

Chris,

You can't waste what you don't have.

How's your life going anyway, post-polygraph?  Really, I want to know, I care.   


Septic,

Do I want your "honest analysis"?  I love that qualifier.  It reminds me of some of the poor, innocent criminals who, when asked a question start with, "Honestly?"; or "Do you want an honest answer?"   

No Septic, lie to me!   

If you can be honest Septic, please give me your "honest analysis".


Do you guys really have to wonder why folks like Dr. Barland don't post on this site anymore?  Do you think "idiots" like me drove him away?  How about the possibility he either found your constant harping to be rather dull, boring, and not at all stimulating; or maybe he simply realized that there is no debating zealots.  The only thing you can do with zealots is either ignore them, or let the "idiots" deal with them. 

Well..........HERE'S BATMAN!!!

The fact that you goofballs keep responding to folks like myself and Torpedo does not speak well for your individual or combined intellects.  Maybe, just maybe your the anti-polygraph idiots.  George simply puts you out there on the front line to take all the shots.  The difference between you idiots and this idiot is that I know and understand my role in this little game; however you guys really think you're out there accomplishing something.  You are George's version of cannon fodder.   

Ain't that right George?  Maybe you can get these idiots out there on your poster campaign?

Batman   

Yes, pin the tail on the donkey....sorry, I couldn't resist...you set me up for it...I just took the bait

Quote:


Chris,
Your humor and intellect aren't wasted; Batman isn't the only one who reads what you post

As for the Breeze, yeah, I was probably a little too hard on him myself, considering what's left.  Of course, we used to have Dr. Barland, J.B. and others stop by for solid debate.  It seems that sort of opposition evaporated after the NAS' report.

Skeptic

Hey!  350 posts!  Isn't there a pin or something?

Batman wrote on Feb 19^th, 2003 at 9:08pm:


Do you want my honest analysis?

Skeptic

Batman wrote on Feb 19^th, 2003 at 9:08pm:


Batman,

You wouldn't know sarcasm if it hit you over the head with a 2x4.  I sometimes wonder if I waste some of my best humor replying to your pathetic posts.   

And sometimes I wonder if I waste my intellect on your posts.

Basically, Batman, you are a waste.  You provide little to the intellectual discussion of the anti pre-employment polygraph debate.

If you would like to redeem yourself, find a polygrapher buddy who has at least half a brain, or skipped the lobotomy day at DoDPI, and get him to post on this site.  Then you can sit back and cheer like your little pet Torpedo does.

I miss the days of the intellectual debate on this site, provided by The_Breeze.  He knew his job, wasn't a moron, threw in the occasional personal dig, and NEVER needed a crew of lap dogs like you have.

And he knew sarcasm.

Chris

Quote:

Batman, your attempt to hide this important information provides me great entertainment.
Go stand in the corner where you belong until time for you to be made accountable for your actions.



I am fully aware of your dark side of secretively deriving pleasure from pain.  I just didn't know that you enjoyed getting it as much as you give it.

The greatest point of the above link comes from the proof of the FBI's mastery of missed opportunities.  Fatal Neglect is a very appropriate name for the book.  

Regards,

Seeker,

Spank me, PLEASE spank me!!!  Batman loves pain, why else would I keep coming back to this site.

So my responses were simply a "venomous misinterpretation" of your recent posts?  Interesting, but how about putting up or shutting up.  You laid out some pretty heavy accusations.  It's easy to sit back now and say how I misinterpreted what you wrote, but my dear sweet lady, you wrote it.  Just what were you meaning when you wrote, 

"It is those agencies who have failed us with their support and belief of witchcraft.  I do not see 9/11 as being luck on the part of the terrorists, but rather a horrible show of how unreliable our intelligence agencies are.....The only thing that is pressing and of concern is how many American lives have we forfeited as a result of our continued support of such voodoo practices.....We as American citizens cannot rely on the FBI to do the required investigative work to chase down leads that come in to them.  They have opted to institute the polygraph as their charlatan.  We can expect nothing less than chance when this method is used." 

How about giving a clear interpretation of the above statements, that way I can correct my thinking.  Tell you what, rather than spanking me, why not just slap me upside the head with a few facts to support what you have written.   

Steinjc,

I apologize for being so subtle in my last post to you.  The last paragraph of that post was intended to be one of my better sarcastic replys.  I obviously missed the mark by a mile if you thought it was meant to imply that I gave a rat's ass about how you live your life.  I'll let Seeker give you a spanking for your "venomous misinterpretation" of my post.

Seeker, spank him with a 2x4, he likes the pain even more than I do!

Batman

Beech Trees:
Thank you for that informative link.  I found it to be of such importance that I will refrain from spanking Batman for his venomous misinterpretation of my recent posts for a few days to allow the readers on this site to see this in the top ten.
Regards,

Quote:

If anyone is interested, an excellent interview given by Larry Pratt (Executive Director of Gun Owners of America) of Tom Fitten concerning the government's continuing failure to combat terrorism may be heard here:

http://www.soundwaves2000.com/rammaker.asp?id=116&d=02-15-03

That link should open up Real Player... if not go to 

http://www.soundwaves2000.com/livefire/

and click the link for the 2.15.03 show. While the polygraph (as far as I can tell) does not come up in the interview, there are many tangential points discussed in the interview that have also been raised here.

Dave

Batman wrote on Feb 18^th, 2003 at 10:47pm:


Holy hallucinations, Batman!  Do you think I would EVER want anything to do with you?  Where do you get off thinking I would want to be YOUR sidekick?

I know your attempt at a Justice League (Batman, Torpedo aka Green Lantern) is seriously lacking the power of intellect, and that you may need someone like me on your team.  Just because we agree on an ethical issue about compilot34 DOES NOT mean that I agree with anything else you preach on this site.  Hell, I felt so dirty after having to agree with you, I was showering in the fetal position for hours.

Quote:


You and I disagreeing, Batman, say it ain't so!
Here's something for you, why don't we let Seeker interperet her postings for us, and if she lays ALL the blame for 9/11 on the polygraph, I'll apologize to you for ever claiming you misquoted her --- God I hope I'm right, because I don't know if I have enough hot water for the shower I'll need after that apology . . . . 

Quote:

Thank you, Tony Robbins, for that wonderfully inspiring speeech.  
I suppose now you will lay your hand upon my forehead, and the demons within me will rise up!!!!  They will leave this tortured soul, and he will be free!!!!  Free!!!!

I know most of you polygraphers think you are shrinks, but you know something, you ought to stick to what you know.  When I want advice on how to live my life, I'll ask somone with better credentials than the DoDPI, ok?  

You said yourself you don't know what it is like to fail a polygraph.  If you knew, you might fail a couple less people than you probably do right now.

Chris

Robin (aka Steincj),

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on how we interpret Seekers postings.

However when you state, "Falsely be failed on a polygraph, have your life stripped, and see if you can live in this world without being "jaded.", I get a little concerned for you.  Was you life really stripped?  Do you still have your family, loved ones, close friends?  I've got to believe you do, and in the long run those are what are really important.  Don't give something like polygraph the power over you that you have.  You can be in control, you still have a life.  Live it, get off this site and get out there and live it to the fullest!  There is life after a failed polygraph, I think.  I passed all four of mine so far so I'm only speculating on that last thought.

Batman 

Batman wrote on Feb 18^th, 2003 at 8:14am:

Ahh, Batman, here we go again.

You have to read more than just one posted message in order to understand the whole discussion.  If you go back to the post by SIE, she stated (in a separate paragraph): Quote:

To which Seeker responded (in a separate paragraph): Quote:

That is called a discussion, usually composed of a statement and a response.  Again, you are taking Seeker out of context.

And like I said, I can't speak for Seeker.  Maybe she did want to link the polygraph and the events of 9/11 as the theme of her post, I don't know - only she can tell us that.  My interpretation of her post is: because of their reliance on the polygraph, these federal agencies have lost some of their effectiveness, and in turn made us vulnerable, as on 9/11.  

Do I think fault for 9/11 can be solely blamed on the polygraph.  Hell no.  Airport security is a huge factor.   Decline in foreign HUMINT, reliance on SIGINT and IMINT, the list goes on.  It was a culmination of a lackadaisical attitude toward national scurity by all Americans.  And we paid the price dearly.  And I'm sure that reliance on the polygraph instead of actual investigation was also a mitigating factor.  How large, well, we may never know.  But I bet it had a role . . .
Quote:
Oh, shame on me for relating Seeker's words to MY personal case in one of MY posts.  The destructiveness of the polygraph is widespread, Batman.  Burying your face in the charts has made you blind to the outside world regarding the consequences of YOUR assumptions.  Falsely be failed on a polygraph, have your life stripped, and see if you can live in this world without being "jaded."  

Chris

Steincj,

You know damn well I did not misquote Seeker.  You also know, as would anyone who read her post with a slightly less jaded outlook that she was referring to terrorist activity specifically that of 11 Sep 01.

Here is her full quote in the paragraphs in question, 

"It is just this type of lunacy that endangers our national security.  I am more afraid of incompetence and archaic belief in trickery than I am of any terrorist.  Why?  Because I know that there are informants out there who have their hands on the gold.  They produce the golden egg over and over again to the trusted federal law enforcement agencies.  It is those agencies who have failed us with their support and belief of witchcraft.

I do not see 9/11 as being luck on the part of the terrorists, but rather a horrible show of how unreliable our intelligence agencies are.  It has been shown many times since 9/11 that information not only was there, but that it was ignored.  The arrogance of certain agencies became their embarrassment."

In the first she is referring to sources that could have provided federal agencies with the information needed to prevent the terrorist attacks.  In the second she links the first directly to the terrorist attacks of 11 Sep 01.

As for the forfeited lives that you believe was a reference to poor souls such as yourself (talk about self serving and narcissistic) Seeker went on to say:

"Maybe they would actually get the truth and save lives.  It is, after all, their mission, isn't it?"

There is no way she is simply referring to those who post on this site as a result of having failed a pre-employment screening polygraph examination!

Again I ask, where is the information that would lead to the conclusion that the over-reliance on polygraph led to the terrorist attacks of either 11 Sep 01, the initial bombing of the World Trade Center in the early '90's, or the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City?

Batman

Batman,

Your ability to take people's words out of context rivals the most liberal left-wing activists I have seen.  Did your mind go numb this weekend while you were out protesting the war?

You quote Seeker as saying:
Batman wrote on Feb 17^th, 2003 at 10:27pm:

In reality (as anyone can see for themselves by looking at what she ACTUALLY wrote), the sentence ending with "witchcraft" ends her paragraph.  The sentence about 9/11 starts a NEW paragraph, usually indicating a change in specific thought, but remaining within the theme of her post.  

Your blatant attempt to combine two of her SEPARATE thoughts for the purpose of brandishing her is reprehensible.  Please don't misquote her or anyone else again.
Quote:

Misquoting someone to make yourself a martyr for the pro-polygraph cause.  Clever, but foolhardy.
Quote:

I know of one, me.  Failing a polygraph was a life changing experience for me.  I wish the mental pain I have sufffered on no one else -- except polygrpahers, so they may see what it is like to falsely accuse someone.  

For a polygrapher, you make your assumption and you kick them out the door.  You forget the subject in minutes, and if you felt remorse (a very big if), you ratioanlize it away with your faith in the machine.   You truly have no idea what effect it has on the falsely accused.

I can't speak for Seeker, but I think she is trying to convey "forfeit" as ruined or destroyed, but not killed, as I believe Batman, you are taking her words to mean.   Your initail misquote of Seeker has made you think she believes the polygraph is responsible for people's lives.  It is responsbible, maybe not their living and breathing, but responsible for other things like hopes, dreams, and career aspirations.  To rip that from someone based on a questioanble test, and allow them no means of recourse, well, it can ruin someone.  I know.
Quote:

Well, Batman, I'm a former MI troop myself.  As you probably know, I am not completely against the polygraph, just against the pre-eployment polygraph and probable lie control question test.  I have explaained many times how I feel the polygraph system can be useful.  But when it comes to the security of over 250 million Americans, if anyone handed me a report that had anything to do with a polygraph, I'd throw it in my "FBIS file" -- that was my term for the trash.  No self respecting intel officer would ever base anything important on FBIS, nor should anyone base anything of importance on the polygraph.  
Quote:

For once we agree, Batman.
Quote:

As I believe I have shown you, the only "pure stupidity" in this entire discussion was you blatant attmept at misquoting Seeker for your pro-poly gains.  

Sorry I'm not trained like a polygrapher -- I check my sources before I make judgements.

Chris

Seeker, 

You state, "It is those agencies who have failed us with their support and belief of witchcraft.  I do not see 9/11 as being luck on the part of the terrorists, but rather a horrible show of how unreliable our intelligence agencies are. "   

So now we can blame the 11 Sep 01, terrorist attacks on the over-reliance on polygraph, therefore the polygraph examiners themselves?  I guess I should be put on trial, maybe even taken out back and shot for allowing such a thing to happen to our country.  Is there no level you won't stoop to in your lame attempt to lay all evil at the door of the polygraph examiner?

You state, "The only thing that is pressing and of concern is how many American lives have we forfeited as a result of our continued support of such voodoo practices."   

Well, just how many American lives have we forfeited as a result of the use of polygraph?  Do you know?  Do you know if we have lost even one or are you just throwing a little bullshit fuel on the anti-polygraph fire? 

You state, "We as American citizens cannot rely on the FBI to do the required investigative work to chase down leads that come in to them.  They have opted to institute the polygraph as their charlatan.  We can expect nothing less than chance when this method is used."   

Do you honestly believe that the only tool used in the gathering and confirmation of intelligence information is the polygraph?  Can you possibly be that ignorant?  Come on George, you're a former MI troop aren't you?  What do you say?  Why not chime in and educate some of your followers so they don't wear their ignorance so proudly on their chests.   

Polygraph, like anything else, is not a perfect tool, however to try and blame all this countries woes (especially what happened on 11 Sep 01) on its use is pure stupidity and does nothing to further your anti-polygraph position. 

Batman

sie wrote on Feb 17^th, 2003 at 11:54am:

sie
Actually, the bureau's record for action on polygraph results are so flippant that I doubt it really matters what they do now.  We as American citizens cannot rely on the FBI to do the required investigative work to chase down leads that come in to them.  They have opted to institute the polygraph as their charlatan.  We can expect nothing less than chance when this method is used.

The problem here is this:
The FBI, as a matter of record, has given polygraphs to informants who passed, and were later found to be dishonest.  They have given polygraphs to informants who failed, and were later found to be honest.  They have further given polygraphs to informants who were found to be inconclusive, failed to act on the information as a result, and ended up wearing egg on their faces.  It has become irrelevant how many times the polygraph obtained correct results.  The only thing that is pressing and of concern is how many American lives have we forfeited as a result of our continued support of such voodoo practices.

It is just this type of lunacy that endangers our national security.  I am more afraid of incompetence and archaic belief in trickery than I am of any terrorist.  Why?  Because I know that there are informants out there who have their hands on the gold.  They produce the golden egg over and over again to the trusted federal law enforcement agencies.  It is those agencies who have failed us with their support and belief of witchcraft.

I do not see 9/11 as being luck on the part of the terrorists, but rather a horrible show of how unreliable our intelligence agencies are.  It has been shown many times since 9/11 that information not only was there, but that it was ignored.  The arrogance of certain agencies became their embarassment.

If the polygraph was removed from their toolbox, there may very well be a greater result from their investigations.  Maybe they would actually get the truth and save lives.  It is, after all, their mission, isn't it?

We are at war and these bums have brought the war to our soil. So, if they should happen to succeed and i happen to be at the target and die OH crappity smackING WELL!

These pukes got lucky Sept 11th 2001. I have complete confidence in my Goevrnment, the gumshoes of the CIA, FBI, Secert Service, and our Military to protect our shores from further attack. But shit happens.

My thinking is this: Their dirty bomb is "FEAR" and everytime our Government issues a warning or raises the bar, these bums score. So for this reason I'm opposed to the issuance of terror warnings. Got infomation, the chatter is increasing? Go chase it down. I DEPEND ON YOU.

Did the FBI explain why the subject wasn't polygraphed before issuing a National warning? I think he was. Imagine if the polygraph showed deception, the FBI did nothing because of it and our Capital came under attack. Boy would the shit hit the fan. Better to be safe then sorry. After all everybody knows how unreliable the box is.

Warning advisory to all cleared personnel:

Copy & paste from:
http://www.dss.mil/isec/dss_notice_032502.htm
 

Advisory to Personnel Cleared by DoD Under the National Industrial Security Program (NISP)

Individual employees may address specific qualification requirements associated with a position by informing prospective employers that they have been granted a Personnel Clearance (PCL) at the required level. 

However, it is a poor security practice for cleared personnel to refer to their clearances in any settings that are not secure. Persons who identify their clearance status in public or non-secure forums risk making themselves targets of foreign interests. 


Respectfully,
triple_x

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Dear Chris,

I am only the roll of a dice and a polygraph crapshoot from your fate.   For just a few seconds in time, my heartbeat was calmer than yours and my breaths smoother.  In the battlefield, I would not care what your skin color, religion, size, or sex was but how good your aim and the size of your heart to watch my back.  When the sh_t hit the fan, I just need to know that you would do your duty under conditions that God did not want to create for man.  I am sorry that you, xXx, and many others on this website will not be allowed to do in the civilian sector what you were more than willing to do on the battlefield.

The polygraph is certainly no true judge of any man's character.

Regards.

Quote:


"GO TEAM, GO!!!"

That's me cheering form the sidelines, because some idiot with a polygraph machine accused me of being a spy and eliminated me from joining that team.   

Blind faith in the polygraph is detrimental to national security in more ways than commononly thought.

I know some pro-polygraph voices will jump in here soon and say something to the effect that "I'm not worthy to be an LEO" or something stupid like that.

I will say this to them now - you can say all you want from the anonymity of your screen name and the safety of your PC, but I challenge anyone of you to sit with my credentails in an interview, and tell me, face to face, that I am not worthy.

Your screen name gives you the balls to do it on this site, but in person, well, I doubt it.

Chris (no screen name here)