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AntiPolygraph.org Message Board › Polygraph and CVSA Forums › Share Your Polygraph or CVSA Experience › Add Poll ( Re: FBI Test ) |
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Topic Summary - Displaying 8 post(s). |
Posted by: False + Posted on: Aug 2nd, 2002 at 10:03pm |
Mark & Quote |
Crushed,
I'm really sorry to hear of your experience with the FBI polygraph. Unfortunately, nothing in your account will come as a surprise to the regulars on this site. If you've read my statement on the Personal Statements portion of the site, you'll see that our experiences have much in common, despite our backgrounds and respective agencies being different. Believe me when I tell you that I can directly relate to how you feel. You have every right to be outraged. You mention in your statement that you demonstrated anger after she confronted you with the "results". I wish I had had the self confidence to do so myself, during my post-test interrogation phase. Instead, I just took the examiner's abuse like a child being chastised by his father. Often times, I wish I would have told that examiner that a roll of toilet paper commands more respect than his charts. For the sake of your long term healing, your demonstrable anger during that interrogation phase will help you. Also, as I'm sure you can already tell, writing about this incident helps begin the healing process. If you don't, it will eat at you night and day. I want to reiterate what Mark said about there being nothing you could have said to convince your examiner she was wrong: if she had a "deceptive" chart, it was her job to obtain an admission from you, be it factual or false. You did the smart thing and left, something I should have done way way earlier than I did, instead of getting beaten up for 5 hours at the hands of 3 CIA polygraphers, one after the other. I'll leave the anwers to your specific questions to George, who's opinions I concur with. Unfortunately, failing a federal polygraph, at this point in time at least, will most likely bar you from any federal law enforcement. As you may know, federal agencies may obtain each other's polygraph reports. As far as maintaining your current position in law enforcement as a Trooper, I think you might be safer than you think. You already have an examplary stature there, and your agency would likely not want to loose someone like you even if they found out about your FBI experience. Take care, False + |
Posted by: George W. Maschke Posted on: Aug 2nd, 2002 at 9:28pm |
Mark & Quote |
Crushed,
Let me address your questions (as best I can) in order: 1) If she told me I passed, why was I made to come back for another test? I suspect that your polygrapher was sincere when she told you that (in her judgment) you passed, but that she was overruled by the FBI polygraph unit in Washington, D.C. (which is now under the National Security Division, and not the Laboratory Division). Your charts may have been interpreted as "significant response" (that is, failing) or "inconclusive." Alternatively, you may have been suspected of having employed countermeasures. 2) Why did she make me respond in different ways on the three drug related charts, and not on the National Security charts? The most likely explanation seems to be that the FBI polygraphers did not believe that there was any "problem" with charts collected with regard to national security matters. (Almost everyone passes this portion of the "test.") 3) Why, on the third test, did she do a stim test in the middle of the two series instead of at the begining of the entire process? Possibly because she was not really concerned about the national security portion. Again, almost everyone is given a "pass" on this portion. Polygraphers think that the stim test will help to ensure an accurate outcome by convincing the subject that the "test" really works. It's supposed to heighten the reactions of deceptive subjects to the relevant questions, and those of truthful subjects to the "control" questions. Your polygrapher may have wanted to situate the "stim test" closer to the chart collection in which she was most interested. 4)Why did she question me about the incident involving the neele on the third test and not on the second one? I don't know. This is probably something that the polygraph unit in D.C. asked her to do. 5) Is it possible that I was destined to fail b/c of the anxiety over having to return several times? Absolutely. If the relevant questions disturbed you as much as or more than the "control" questions, you would have had little chance of passing unless you employed countermeasures, which I gather from your account you did not. You also asked: Quote: Finally, how could I have passed the second test, and failed the third test when the relavent questions were basically the same? Is there anyway to compair the two test results in an appeal process... if there is one. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there is no appeal process. It seems likely that your polygrapher's original opinion was overruled by FBI HQ. If you request and obtain your polygraph charts under the Privacy Act, you could have them independently reviewed (I think Drew Richardson would be competent to do so), but again, the FBI has no appeal process for polygraph victims. |
Posted by: Crushed Posted on: Aug 2nd, 2002 at 8:36pm |
Mark & Quote |
Thank you very much for your support, and direction. I have a couple of questions that have been bothering me. If any one has an explaination, I would very much appreciate your response.
My questions are: 1) If she told me I passed, why was I made to come back for another test? 2) Why did she make me respond in different ways on the three drug related charts, and not on the National Security charts? 3) Why, on the third test, did she do a stim test in the middle of the two series instead of at the begining of the entire process? 4)Why did she question me about the incident involving the neele on the third test and not on the second one? 5) Is it possible that I was destined to fail b/c of the anxiety over having to return several times? Finally, how could I have passed the second test, and failed the third test when the relavent questions were basically the same? Is there anyway to compair the two test results in an appeal process... if there is one. |
Posted by: Mark Mallah Posted on: Aug 2nd, 2002 at 7:07pm |
Mark & Quote |
Crushed,
Before I respond to directly to your experience, I think it's quite clear that this web site is having an impact, evidenced by the questions the polygraph examiner asked re whether any research was conducted over the internet, and whether Crushed planned to use anything he learned about the polygraph to help him with the test. It seems clear that this site is definitely on their radar screen. Crushed, let me first say that you deserved much better, especially with your exemplary record, and it's really a blot on the FBI, not on you. In no way should you take this experience personally. By the way, I was an FBI Agent for nine years, and you can read about my polygraph experience in the Personal Statements section of this site. Anyway, I thought you handled the situation extremely well. Had you not walked out of there, you would have been subjected to a Kafkaesque interrogation wherein NOTHING you could say would dissuade the examiner from trying to extract a damaging admission from you. She was clearly on that path, and trying to snag you. And knowing that you had done some research on the polygraph, you may very well have been accused of employing countermeasures. So I think you handled it beautifully, and did not indulge the examiner in her fictions. Just to repeat, there was nothing you would have achieved by staying for the post-test interrogation other than incurring a lot of aggravation and frustration for yourself. As George has said, you are in good company. From a legal standpoint (by the way, I'm a lawyer now--please don't hold it against me though), I'm sorry to say that the odds are against you gaining entrance into the FBI, unless you have some "in", or benefit from the Mark Zaid class action suit, either as a litigant or as a beneficiary of a subsequent ruling, which could be a ways off. But I still recommend following through on it, as George has suggested. Again, from a legal standpoint, I recommend your position be that if this FBI polygraph in any way adversely affects your career/livelihood/reputation, then the FBI should know that you will pursue all legal avenues and remedies. Best of luck and keep us posted. |
Posted by: George W. Maschke Posted on: Aug 2nd, 2002 at 6:17pm |
Mark & Quote |
Crushed,
Unfortunately, the FBI has no formal appeal process for those who "fail to pass" the polygraph. Their applications for employment are summarily terminated, and the polygraph results may be reported to other agencies. Nonetheless, there are steps you can and should take now to protect yourself: 1) Write a letter to the Director of the FBI (Robert S. Mueller III) contesting your polygrapher's opinion and requesting a new polygraph examination. Send this letter by certified, return-receipt mail so that you will have proof that your letter was received. (Your letter should become a part of your FBI HQ file.) 2) File a Privacy Act request with the Bureau demanding a copy of all FBI records related to your application, including your polygraph report, charts, and supporting documentation. Again, send this request by certified, return-receipt mail. With regard to suggestions 1 and 2 above, see Chapter 5 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for further details. 3) Contact a lawyer to discuss your legal options. One lawyer with whom I suggest you speak is Mark S. Zaid, who is representing a number of plaintiffs who are suing the FBI and other agencies in federal district court over their use of polygraphs for pre-employment screening. You may wish to join this litigation. For filings in these cases, see the AntiPolygraph.org Polygraph Litigation page. Mr. Zaid may be reached by e-mail to ZaidMS@aol.com or by telephone at (202) 371-6626. |
Posted by: Crushed Posted on: Aug 2nd, 2002 at 7:38am |
Mark & Quote |
My experience with the FBI polygraph, as stated earlier, is a bit lenghty, but needs to be told. I'd like to give a little backgroung information about my self before I begin to share the most humiliating, degrading, and insulting experience of my life.
In 1994, I graduated from college with a Bachelor's degree in Criminal Justice. I was also an athlete during my entire college career, and was subjected to drug testing every year as part of my athletic eligability. Shortly before graduating, I applied with two State Police agencies, one major metropolitan Police Department, and one mid sized Police Department. I was successful in all four app. processes, which included complete background investigations, and I was polygraphed by the two State Police agencies. I took the job I now have before I was polygraphed by the other two Police Departments. I have been employed as a State Trooper, in a mid western state, for the last seven years. At no time during any of the 4 background investigations did any indication of drug use become an issue. The reason is because I disclosed my only drug experience, a one time marijuana use during my freshman year, to my background investigators, and my polygraph examiners. I passed both polygraphs, which included questions about drug history, sales and so forth, with no problems. I began my career as a Trooper, and took a particular interest in highway drug interdiction. I received extensive training in this area, and have attended several drug related training seminars which were sponsered by various Federal LEA's. I have also become a Certified Drug Recognition Expert...certified by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, and the International Association Of Chiefs Of Police. I have worked extremely hard to establish an impressive work record, which includes a Law Enforcement Officer Of The Year Award from Optimist International. I have also been the leader in drug related arrests in my region for the last six consecutive years. In 2001 I obtained a Masters degree in Criminal Justice Administration and decided pursue a life long dream. I submitted an application to the FBI. I was given a conditional offer of employment by the FBI and began the final steps in the selection process. During the Personal Security Interview, I disclosed the details of my drug use, and I also disclosed information about a significant drug related incident which happened to me while performing my duties as a State Trooper. In 1999, During a car search, I was stabbed with a hypodermic syringe, which was loaded with methamphetamine. The "owner" of the syringe was later confirmed to be HIV positive at the time of this incident. AS a precaution, my employer required that I participate in a year long exposure control treatment program for drug and HIV exposure. I also received counseling for a significant period of time to help deal with the fears and anxieties one might expect to accompany such an experience. The FBI requested, and I supplied, all related departmental reports surrounding this incident including a subsequent death cirtificate of the HIV positive individual. My applicant coordinator indicated that this incident shouldn't affect my chances of becoming an Agent. I was subsequently scheduled for a polygraph test on July 3, 2002. I arrived at the FBI building and met with my polygraph examiner. She conducted the standard pre test interview in which I disclosed my drug history. She inquired about the incident involving the syringe, and I explained all the details to her. She also had the reports in her file. She also asked if I had done research on polygraphs. I told her I had not, which was true. (At the time I did not think I needed to worry about the polygraph test, not only b/c I had passed both prior tests I had taken, but because I believed that if I told the truth there would be no problems.) After the pre test interview was over, she sat me in the chair and hooked me up to the machine. She did not conduct a "Stim test" but began the first "chart" with the questions relating to National Security. After the first chart was completed, she came over, inspected my fingers (the ones with the electrodes attached to them) and then applied a liquid substance to them. I did not know the reason for this so I asked her. She said my fingers were not sweating properly, and I was not producing a proper response. She then went back to her desk behind me and began the second "chart" by saying, "This test is about to begin." Almost immediately she said, "This test is now over". She came back and looked at my fingers again. She then unhooked me from the machine and took me to a bathroom and told me to wash my hands with warm water. I did as she asked, and then was hooked back up to the machine. Again she started and stopped the test after only a few seconds. She removed the electrodes from my fingers. She replaced the electrodes with new or different ones and reconnected me. Again she started and stopped the test after only a few seconds. This time she left the room with out an explaination, and without unhooking me from the machine. She returned after a period of approximately 15 minutes. I could hear her messing around with the instrument behind me. Because of my prior polygraph tests, I thought something was going wrong. I became a bit nervous and I told her so. She stated that she was having equipment problems. I asked her what the problem was and she said, "It's too technical for you to understand. I need you to sit there and relax." She then left the room again with out further explaination, and with me still hooked up to the machine. She returned after 15-20 minutes and again began fiddleing with the machine. She fidled for a few minutes and then told me that she had an equipment failure and we would not be able to continue the test. I asked if there was another machine we could use and she said no, I would need to reschedule the test on another day. She was holding one of the machines pens in her hand, and sahe stated that the counterweight had fallen off and she could not fix it. I contacted my applicant coordinator and rescheduled my test. On July 11, 2002 I returned to the FBI building for the second attempt at the polygraph test. I was met by my examiner (same as the first one), and taken directly to the polygraph room. She said, "We don't need to waste time with another interview we'll just get right to it." She asked me again if I had done research on polygraphs, or if I had spoken to anyone about what had happened on the las t test. I told her the truth. I had not done any research, but had spoken to one of the Criminal Investigators with my Department. She asked if he was a polygraph examiner, and also what had we spoken about. Again, I told her the truth. He was not a polygraph examiner, he had laughed at what had happened, and told me not to worry about the test. She then said, "OK" and she then hooked me up to the machine. She started with the National Security questions first. She went through 3 "charts". For each "chart" she told me to simply respond with a "yes", or "no", to the questions she would be asking. After those charts were completed she moved on to the drug related and what she called, "employment suitability" questions. For the first "chart" she said to respond with a verbal "yes", or "no" just as before. For the second "chart" she said, "repeat the last word of each question I ask, then respond with a verbal yes, or no." For the third chart, she told me "Do not to respond verbally, but rather nod your head slightly up or down for yes, or side to side for no. At the conclusion of the third "chart", she left the room for approximately 10 minutes. When she returned she stood directly in front of me and said, "Congratulations, I'm satisfied with your charts, and I'm going to recomend that you be continued in the selection process." I was then unhooked from the machine. She then stated that my charts had to be reviewed by quality control in Washington, and asked if needed would I return to be retested. I told her I would, and then I left the building. On July 19. 2002 I received a phone call from my applicant coordinator stating that I needed to reschedule another polygraph test. I asked why, and she either could not, or would not give me an answer. She simply stated that due to the 9-11 thing, Headquarters wanted to be sure about everything. I rescheduled my third test for July 23, 2002. I arrived for the third test and again was met by the same examiner. She again stated that we were not going to do an interview, and we would get right to it. She asked again if I had done any research on polygraph testing. I told her I had been on the internet, and had spoken to a polygraph examiner about why I was returning for a third time. She asked me what specific sites I had gone to on the internet. I answered her truthfully. I told her I had gone to "The Polygraph Place", "How stuff works", and "AntiPolygraph". She asked if I had learned anything, and if I planned to use any thing I read to try to help my test. Again I told her the truth, that I planned only to tell the truth. She said good and then hooked me up. The third test began again with the National Security questions and she told me to answer the questions verbally with a "yes" or "no". Before the test began she told me I was breathing too slowly, and I needed to breath faster. She also stated that some people try to "help" their test results by doing things to change the results. She said that if she thought I was doing that she would immediately disqualify me from the process. She then conducted three "charts". After that was finished, she moved on to the drug related questions. This time she questioned me about the incident with the needle and said she was going to use that as a question on my test. She also told me that she wanted to conduct a "Stim test". She used the numbers format in which she had me write a number on a sheet of paper and then she told me to lie when she asked me if I wrote that number. After the "Stim test she said that she could definately tell when I lied, but did not show me the "chart", nor explain how she could tell I was lying. She then told me a story about a person who was a new agent in the FBI Academy. She said that a a Field Agent, who was conducting a separate investigation, had produced a cooperating witness that informed the FBI that one of his former drug dealers was in the FBI Academy. She asked me if I could imagine how embarrassed the FBI was that a drug dealer had gotten through, and was in their academy. I said "wow", and agreed that it must have been very embarrassing. I thought nothing more about her story untill I read read some of the information on this site. She started the drug related questions and stated that she did not want me to respond verbally, but only with a slight head nod. She conducted three "charts". Immediately after the third "chart" was completed she pulled her chair in front of me and sat down. She said that she could not pass me based on my "charts". She asked if anything bothered me about the questions she had asked. I told her that I thought it was unfair that she had asked me questions about the incident with the needle. She said, "I'm past that issue." She held up a "chart", folded it in half and placed it in my lap. She told me to point to the "biggest bump" I saw, and I did. She said that was my response to the question about my drug use. She then told me to point to the "second biggest bump", and I did. She said that was my response to the question about selling drugs. I told her there must be a mistake because I had told her about my drug use, and I had never sold any drugs. She then said, "The only way I can retest you is if I gave me a reason to." I asked her what she wanted and she suggested that I would have to tell her that I had done some other drugs and that I was just afraid to talk about it, or that I had sold drugs. I became very angry and again told her there was no way the results were correct, I reiterated that I had told her the truth, I had passed two other State Police polygraphs, and drug use or sales was never an issue. She then said, "I can be as off the record as anyone." She again told me that I had to give her "something" in order to be retested." I was completely floored, angry, and totally confused by what she was saying. I told her, "My integrity is far to important to me to tell you I have done something which I have not, just to get another test." I also said, "If that's the only way to get another test I will remove my self from this process." She said "OK", unhooked me from the machine and I left. The following day, I called the Applicant Coordinator. She was not available at the time I called. I left a message asking her to call me back because I wanted to appeal the results of the test and wanted to know who I needed to speak with. I have received no return phone call from anyone with the FBI. I did however receive a form letter stating that my polygraph results were not within acceptable paramaters, and I was being removed from the selection processs. As you can imagine, I have been completely humiliated by this experience, and my life long dreams have been CRUSHED. I fear that this experience will have a negative impact on my current law enforcement career. I would like to hear from someone who can tell me if my experience was unusual, and what I can expect to happen in the future. I will be glad to give more specific details of my polygraph test in a later post if it is necessary. Please help. |
Posted by: George W. Maschke Posted on: Aug 1st, 2002 at 8:39am |
Mark & Quote![]() |
Crushed,
I'm saddened to read this. You are in good company, however. Many truthful have been falsely accused of deception. If you are willing to share your story publicly, please consider posting it here. Alternatively, if you'd be willing to write a more formal statement for possible inclusion on AntiPolygraph.org's Personal Statements page, please e-mail info@antipolygraph.org. |
Posted by: Crushed Posted on: Aug 1st, 2002 at 7:55am |
Mark & Quote![]() |
I have a devestating story about my experience with the FBI polygraph test. Although my story is rather lengthy, I feel it should be told. In fact, it ranks right at the top with the worst horror stories I have heard.
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